They all made it up. O-Sensei made it up, his students made stuff up. There is no question of any of these folks claiming to be doing or teaching a sword style or a jo style but rather a style in which sword and jo were important tools for understanding and developing ones skills in the style.
Well, no, they didn't -all- make it up. And that was my point.
There were quite a few swordsman who trained there, who would have been ample reminder to those that did.
You have Kashima, Katori, Itto, and others represented there to remind the fellows who were making it up.
So no, I most certainly do not agree. Some, like Saotome stated he made his swordwork up later in life, others were trained in several koryu.
Weapons training was a part of Aikido from day one. That started back in the thirties when some of the deshi actually had some koryu training but it was still true at the very end of the Founder's life. Saotome Sensei told us that 90% of the time, if you asked the Founder a question about just about anything, he'd grab a sword to demonstrate the answer.
Again that brings to question the chicken and the egg. I believe the question was WHAT sort of weapon work was taught and perhaps why they didn't talk about it.
So -what- he was demonstrating
What- his deshi demonstrating, was the question.
Not that he grabbed a sword and demonstrated.
BTW Most considered Ueshiba a genius with the sword, so where's the beef compared to Koryu or not even if he DID make it up?
But we weren't talking about him, but rather his deshi.
Next up was the question of why the tight lips-among them.
I asserted there were other reasons beside just any and everyone possibly being sword masters.
Some knew Koryu weapons but maybe were not allowed to teach...seems reasonable for not wanting to discuss it
Or that other didn't know them so well. Which you just agreed to.
Seems the only thing you're stating in counter to my assertion is that their *not* knowing Koryu would not have bothered them at all-hence would not have been a reason for tight lips.
That seems a reasonable counter argument as well.
He simply did not see a separation between his empty hand and his weapons. If weapons work became optional as part of an Aikido practitioner's understanding of his art, it wasn't while the Founder was still alive. This had nothing to do with trying to impress foreigners... most of these guys a) didn't care if they impressed foreigners and b) if the wanted to do so they usually cranked a nikkyo on them...
Could certainly be true, but on the other hand the video's that have been out there for years certainly show quite a bt of non-empty hand relevant show boating with bokuto. But again, thats your rebbutal. It seems several people have remarked for years about teaching foreigners and various insider discussion about demos.
These discussions always somehow end up with a sort of self congratulatory note in them in that you, of course, are part of the group that knows.
Sorry to see you feel that way George. I don't think you or I or what we may or may not know have anything to do with it and will affect the discussion in any way. Isn't it a discussion about what might have *actually* happened? Wouldn't that be a neutral research point?
And since many of the deshi had experience in many arts, doesn't it make my points all the more relevant. You had a series of guys who taught weapons, but as you wrote were weirdly silent about stating where it came from? My assertions about motive are pretty reasonable.
Mochizuki may have been an excellent example. I wonder how comfortable he might have been teaching Katori to outsiders?
Or the guys who studied Kashima while Ueshiba watched? They might have shared and been "weirdly silent like watergate witnessess" about teaching.
This could apply to several other guys who were well versed. Wasn't there also someone who supposedly taught Kendo- no-kata?
In contrast you might have had guys who had been compelled to show something but felt unqualified in front of *those* guys and other outsiders-hence silence. Seems reasonable. You discount it-okay fine.
Then I offered you might have had those who made it up out of whole cloth and didn't want to say it. Seems reasonable as well. You think its ridiculous. Okay. there were of course teachers who did. I guess you are asserting they were all comfortable and or proud of the fact as it was not a point of contention for them. Point taken.
So what other reasons are you offering for why these chaps would be so tight lipped -as was noted here?
Of course there may be other reasons for publicly teaching weapons and not wanting to talk about it. I am sure others will offer some observations and views.