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Old 07-15-2008, 11:46 AM   #51
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: Seiseki Abe Sensei video....whats going on here?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
To Shaun and Ron

I think that this video will do nothing but cause serious people to doubt.
Hi Dan,

Well of course, you are entitled to your opinion. As for me, speaking from my own experience, a little doubt is always a good thing to keep in the back of one's mind. Would you not agree? While I may not be the most serious martial artist on the planet, I am very sincere. Now if you ask me, sincerity and skepticism go a long way towards balancing each other over time. I have chosen not to comment on the video, itself. As such, I am thoroughly enjoying the varied display of people talking out their pie holes about which they know less than nothing.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I think its worth noting that there are men of power who would NEVER allow the sort of things displayed in this video.
I think it is important to mention the context within which the video demonstration takes place. From what I can tell it seems as though it is a demonstration for some teen television show. That being the case, I believe inspiring young minds by planting a seed is certainly more valuable than showing them that you can break someone's arm using Aikido techniques. Wouldn't you agree?

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
...Their control is through connection, or power release through contact. No cooperation is needed or asked.
I agree. I stated so using very clear language as to that fact in my last post. But I believe that my viewpoint and yours as to how "connection, or power release through contact" relates to O-Sensei's Aikido versus how it relates to DRAJ, (or whatever model it is with which you identify) is very different. This goes back to my posts regarding Gan-Sa-Tan-Riki, which readers are free to find on this site. Suffice it to say that in my opinion, based upon what you have written on this site about Aikido versus Aiki...do, and your questions, statements and observations about the video in post #1 that you are currently only seeking proficiency/mastery of levels Tan through Sa. Of course, I am certainly open to the fact that you may be hiding some other level of knowledge that you have, or of which you have come in contact with, but have yet to find access to.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Why would he do this stuff?
I want to make two things clear. First, I do not speak for Abe Sensei. Only Abe Sensei could answer your question. I would suggest you ask him directly. Second, If there is one thing I have learned in martial arts it is that while I might venture a guess as to what it is I am currently learning, which direction I am heading, where I will end up, or why it is that Abe Sensei did, said, didn't do or didn't say this, that or the other thing, I would most certainly be right and wrong some percentage of the time. Based upon this, I let him lead and don't try to second guess anything.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
This is nothing more than over exaggerated flinch response, coupled with ukemi skills.
Actually, that is about as far from the truth as could be possible. My suggestion would be to pack a bag, get on a plane and find out for yourself.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Not to take away from Mr. Abe. I am not addressing his purported skills. Let's say they are everything claimed. Having power-has not one thing to do with ukes training to be sooo overly sensitive that they throw themselves through the air with "perceived" movement from him. It's not martially relevant in any way and the degree of sensitivity displayed by the uke?
I appreciate your respectful tone. I also completely agree with your point about "power" whatever that may actually be, and its causal/effect relationship with Uke. As to how, where or when sensitivity to the smallest of movements could be seen as anything else than "martially relevant, well, let's just say that I could not disagree with you more on this subject. I will say more about that in response to some of your other points.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Will not get you even one step closer to power and aiki then if you never trained at all.
Power and Aiki... hmmm? Again, while we may both be training to bring about an apparent similar result, it is the differences that I will continue to point at in my posts. I equate the differences in this manner - we each want to exert complete control over our surroundings. With this in mind you seek to up the volume on power and aiki as you define them. You are extending yourself outwards, rooted in internals, ground connection and the like. All good stuff, about which I am sure you could teach me many things. I hope to have the opportunity to feel what it is that you have been working on at some point. As for me, I am not trying to gain control over my circumstances with these things, as important as they are. Why? Because there will always be someone who is more powerful, or has better Aiki. So, what else is there that would preclude any opportunity to be outdone by another? Well, if one asks themselves this question and meditates on the answer long enough you come to know that it is the direct opposite of power release and aiki-age. With such a thought and a sincere desire to discover what that is and just how to do that, I would imagine that one would need to find a teacher to guide them. Wouldn't you agree Dan?

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
And why would you spend a ten year curve to increase your sensitivity to his movements -to be thrown?
Its a good question Dan. I would be surprised if you didn't already know the answer to that question. I like the curve symbolism. It is a great visual to use when describing one's martial path. As to your question, I ask a questions, "How long did it take Einstein to come up with ?" Did he just sit down at a desk and plug away at it until he came up with a solution? No, he opened himself up to other things which peripherally enhanced his ability to move forward. I choose Einsteing and his formula because they are the most relevant - think black holes and their effect on light - one can see that it is because matter and energy are one and the same that one will inflict its will on the other. However, those are meditative concepts and for another thread, perhaps.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I would have imagined that 3 or 4 years out the training would have caused the opposite effect. Why didn't the sensitivity to his movements start to preclude, and make it far more difficult for most any attempt at throwing you.
Another great point Dan. I think it took slightly less time in fact to see that exact result, only not with Abe Sensei, just with everyone else.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Again I'm not making any comment about Abe sensei's power at all. I am just offering that there is a distinction between having "it" at any level and "what" those guys are choosing to "do together." Which has not one thing to do with having...it.
When Takemusu Aiki is present, there is no "together" - conceptually two things that are joined - rather there are no things at all. It is the difference in thinking how 1 differs from 2 versus how 1 differs from 0. Mathematically the answer is always 1 in each case. However, the concept of zero is mathematically superior to the concept of either 1 or two. 1 and 2 are numbers. 0 is the opposite to infinity. When we talk about infinity we are talking about God. From a humanistic perspective it is like trying to understand the difference between the three sayings "God created man" "man created God" and "God created God." The first two, while maybe accurate at some level are dualistic in nature, and the third is, well... the superior truth when all is considered.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Since you both trained with him, can anyone state where an equal amount of time spent training structure, retained balance and intent would not be more beneficial then learning to dodge and throw yourself from a perceived hand signal?
Since the observation about what is being displayed is, in itself, flawed, any conclusions based upon said observations would be also flawed.

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Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Was his regular training like this?
Yes and no. It depends on which training one attended. As I am very sure you are aware, there are various levels taught at every traditional dojo. What one learns at one level is countered at the next level. Interestingly, about six years into my training I was able to observe the rank and file testing. Low and behold kyu through dan training was straight out of Iwama. Truth is, I had never participated in any class that focused on basic waza. I thought they just didn't focus on that at all. I was both surprised at and amazed by how technically proficient the students were at basic waza. To see them performed at the 6th dan level was even more amazing as I would have sworn that they had never even trained in such a manner.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
I have dealt with real power before. Never once did I consider throwing myself as an option.
Well, there might be some reasons to get out of the way, say to avoid a sword, a horse, an arrow. But, once again Dan, that isn't what we are talking about. What we are alluding to is whether or not there is some level where one can not only not keep their balance, but that they are propelled with such efficiency of energy, such conservation of movement and with such a dramatic impact that one would be injured had he not spent as many years as it takes to be proficient at taking ukemi at such a level when one was not expecting to have to do so at all because he was so surely convinced that he could not be thrown.

Quote:
Dan Harden wrote: View Post
Was the whole video just one big goof? I heard and thought he was a more seriously skilled type.
Dan, not for nothing, but truth be told, it really wouldn't matter what I said here. I could tell you that Abe Sensei has a big "S" on his undershirt and a cape under his dogi, that he can bounce bullets off his eyeballs and blow out building fires with one breath. Even if that were true... would you believe me? Probably not. But, if it all were true, would you not only want to know about it, but be curious enough to want to experience it for yourself?

...?
...??
...???

So Dan, would you like for me to arrange for you to ask Abe Sensei, yourself?

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I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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