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Old 06-25-2008, 11:28 PM   #21
Misogi-no-Gyo
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
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Re: Aikido™ and Aiki…do. Where are we at?

Caution - HELL is freezing over... I am about to publicly agree with Mike Sigman - over and over and over! Well, mostly agree, anyway.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I gotta say that I'm a little disappointed with some of the levels of debate that I've encountered by too many "spiritual" people, in my life. And trust me, I don't have that attitude simply because I've never broken heads.
I would agree Mike. I am totally disappointed with some of the levels of debate, too - mostly yours, along with some others. Of course, this is because I actually believe that you have something important to say, have something important to teach and something important to do, but it mostly gets shrouded by your overt inconsideration of almost everyone, okay, everyone that doesn't completely agree with you. I don't know, nor would I be qualified to measure the level of spirituality in your life, and while you may never have broken any heads, you certainly get some kind of joy out of publicly breaking people's balls.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
You know, there are different approaches to how these things are done, but the core principles are the same and can be explained rationally.
Again, I agree with you completely there.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
There are different mysticisms that have been mixed in as veneers to complement different religions (like Buddhism, Shintoism, etc.), but the core principles are the same and can be explained rationally. There are different visualizations used by different people/styles, but the core principles are (and must be) the same... and they can be explained rationally.
Wow, Mike - Three for three. You are on a roll.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The idea that Misogi-no-gyo or any form of misogi is somehow working on different core principles is simply a wrong idea and somewhat of an alarm-flag raiser to boot.
I have always said the exact same thing. When I hear mystical approaches to things, it is a clear indicator that the person most likely either doesn't want me to know he knows, or he doesn't know at all, himself. Fortunately for me, my teachers and personal influences never bandied about with anything even remotely mystical or overtly spiritual when it came to teaching, demonstrating, lecturing or instructing.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Think back to the interview of Tohei in Aikido Journal (I think it's the first of a 3-part interview) where he describes O-Sensei's idea of why the hungover Tohei shouldn't be able to do the "unliftable" demonstration. Regardless of O-Sensei's religious mysticism, Tohei could still do the "unliftable" demonstration by "dropping his center".... because the core principle is the same.
Well, I agree, but I wouldn't bandy about opinions about Tohei Sensei, as I have no personal relationship with him or his group at all. However, I do have some information about several of his teachers that isn't public knowledge. Maybe someday when you have another epiphany and realize that you may not have been "spot on" with your current understanding you will be open to seeing the bigger picture as you find these things out for yourself.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Now someone may want to keep some exotic or esoteric explanation because it's colorful, but if they can really do these things, the baseline discussions by a number of people should be easily understood, even if those descriptions are a little bit different from what one is used to.... because "dropping your center" or "using the groundpath" are pretty obvious contextually,
Esoteric - understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge or interest. I couldn't really tell from the tone of your rant, but did you just say that there are no esoteric teachings, or just that all esoteric teachings must be colorful or clouded in mysticism?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
if you really know the subject. The people who argue "their way" seem to be the people for whom the common conversation doesn't ring obvious bells, in my experience. "Misogi" is fine... but why not also show that you physically know how to do these things, if you really know how? It would create so much harmony.
Mike, I am not sure why you felt the need to completely misrepresent what I said, both here in this thread and everywhere else. I don't understand, nor do I wish to for that matter, why you felt it necessary to quote my questions and then not answer them, either, but you certainly are a master of making your own rules and then challenging everyone else who doesn't agree with them or follow them. For the record, I addressed specific questions to Gernot, someone who spent a few years training at Abe Sensei's dojo. He has also moved on, and unless I am mistaken he is now in Tokyo and training with some of the Anukai. He made assertions about which I desired to get some clarification. I could have just written him a PM and spared myself another attempted penetration by your dull wit woefully powered by your repetitive, unproven, sometimes way off the mark assumptions, but that would have beguiled the point that you, yourself, amongst others have made, that we should not hide the truth in the shadows but rather come together and build a consensus for the benefit of the coming generations. My questions, unlike most of your points, were not rhetorical, sarcastic, condescending or off the point. They are actually very important points that:
  1. Most people who train in Aikido don't know they don't know.
  2. Most people who practice Misogi don't know they don't know.
  3. Both you and I would agree with on many levels
  4. Directly explain in layman's terms how to seek the founder's art.

As for creating harmony - GET REAL, dude! While you may have great internal skills, your external skill set is still in its infancy. In any case, FWIW the spell checker thingy is right next to the submit button. Be well.

.

Last edited by Misogi-no-Gyo : 06-25-2008 at 11:34 PM.

I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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