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Old 04-14-2008, 10:25 PM   #30
KIT
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 140
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Re: What is "combat"?

Phil

Perhaps not surprisingly, I strongly follow Kevin in his thinking. We are both trainers of guys who face "combat" situations, typically in very different environments, but because he teaches close combat, probably more alike than not.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Kit,

...Would you agree that a person who has a mind set of not wanting to be killed or injured-unwillingly- when caught in a fight would be combat? And that the levels of duress are based on situation.
In general, yes. They are often based on the person as well. Some people will overreact to a situation that would not necessarily be combative, and their psychological and physiological reaction might be the same as a much more trained and experienced person would undergo in a much more "combative" situation. Some people get completely overwhelmed in Simunition scenarios - which aren't even real, though the stress they produce can be for some people.

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Including those being attacked have experience vs. those not experienced at all in high stressful situations? For example, like the girl beat up by 8 others, thinking she was going to die then and there before she was K.O. She may have felt the same level of duress prior and during that point of when she got K.O. The same duress and intensity that a trained solider might feel for the first time while being in a fire fight. Wouldn't both these people feel high levels of duress even though their situations aren't the same? Isn't each an example of a real combat situation?
To my thinking, yes. Eight on one in a committed attack, even unarmed, is a lethal threat situation. I would shoot people who were doing that to me. Understand, too, that there is a certain level of default to experience - that soldier who might have been shot at repeatedly from guys fifty or a hundred yards away, and might be a crack shot, might freak out and lose all composure when attacked by eight guys at close range who intend to stomp him to death.

- RE: MMA - snip -

Quote:
Philip Burgess wrote: View Post
Physiologically know you have a safety net does play a role in changing the mind set. The purpose of having a safety net is so the fighters don't suffer serious or life threatening injury, like having a eye gouged out, so they can make the next fight.

What do you think? Just curious what your take is.
Hmmm, let me see if I can address this and how I think about it without causing too much of a stir.

Physiologically, actually, the results will be very similar, and I think there is some research to show that this is the case.

Though I've trained it, I've never fought MMA, but I have to tell you, Judo shiai has been next to my closest experience to real, "combative" physical encounters (in other words not "resisting arrest" but situations where people have bitten me, eye gouged me, groin grabbed me, attacked me once we went to the ground, etc.). The speed, dynamics, and heart pounding intensity have been very close.

I can only imagine that MMA, with far less rules, would be closer still. There is a safety net for obvious reasons, but while the brain intellectually understands that, which will lessen the stress, the body really doesn't know the difference.

The closest experience to the real thing has been intense, close quarters, combined Simunition with hand to hand combat drills - where the other guy is actively trying to shoot you from a few feet away to contact distance.

Once again, not the real thing, but the dynamics and speed closely mirror reality.

Some people will decry MMA as rules bound and not like real fighting, and yet hold up Simunition force on force training as tantamount to real gunfighting, though it is just as rules bound and "unrealistic" in a completely different way...

And others will do Sim drills as if it is "paintball with real guns" and lose much of the training value in it.

Still others will "nut up" as if it was the real thing and they actually think they are going to die - as Kevin talks about people go fetal, I've seen them throw their guns down and run out of the room, I've seen them simply give up, completely go "out of scenario" and raise their hand and go "my gun's not working!!!"

The point is its TRAINING. No training perfectly mirrors reality because the MINDSET is different. Even if the dynamics are relatively the same. Some folks don't even have the mindset to handle the simulated reality, let alone the reality.

Force on Force Simunition drills and scenarios, and MMA, are the next best thing to real combat. The difference is in how we approach both in our minds.

Now, as Kevin says - as you train, so shall you do. Don't for a second mistake me as saying that I think that MMA is "all you need." I have seen MMA fighters who are also officers completely ignore that guns are involved in a situation in favor of MMA moves that get their guns taken away. I've also had them tell me "I never thought of that" when I show them combative applications of standard MMA moves but applied to gun or knife - I don't tell them the dirty little secret that I stole much of my thinking on that from traditional martial arts, especially armed jujutsu.

You have to integrate that in your training - mentally and physically. I try to discipline myself when doing Judo or BJJ to think how I would access a weapon in certain situations. Or I will place my hand on a partner's face momentarily, and say to myself "eye gouge" or the like, just to make sure I pattern that thinking in my training. I also have other training outlets where I can much more directly incorporate those things - without actually eye gouging, etc. though - and deal with weapons based stuff - there is simply no substitute than having a blue or purple belt level, or higher, BJJ guy who is also a cop, familiar with guns, and familiar with your holster, actually trying to take your gun and use it against you in a freestyle "gun grappling" fight. Add striking and dirty tactic "benchmarks" (since you aren't actually doing it to each other) and that is about the closest you can come to reality.

In the end, no matter what you are training, if you are not training with combatively realistic dynamics in addition to a combatively realistic awareness, you aren't training as realistically as you can be. This is admittedly less important for the martial artist than it is for the armed professional, by and large.
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