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Old 12-01-2007, 01:22 PM   #18
Amir Krause
Dojo: Shirokan Dojo / Tel Aviv Israel
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 643
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Re: Poll: How comfortable are you in taking falls from aikido koshinage?

Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
This 'control over the fall' is given to uke by nage. In kaitenage we don't grasp the neck, we simply weigh it down. In shihonage for people not capable or ready for the breakfall, we loosen it up. Sometimes nage forgets, especially in goofy koshis.
michael.
Quote:
Peter Gröndahl wrote: View Post
Based on my own experience, I disagree. Even if it´s probably perfectly possible I have yet to encounter a shihonage that actually throws people in to a breakfall. I have encountered shihonages that took my balance and locked me up so that I could´t´t walk away and instead went straight down but never actually thrown as in for instance koshinage or iriminage. The breakfall in shihonage is always the choice of uke (maybe a choice between a dislocated elbow and safe ukemi but still a choice), in a well performed hipthrow you dont have any choice….
Quote:
Faith Eisentrager wrote: View Post
I agree that taking a good fall from koshinage depends a lot on your nage. My ukemi is pretty good and I've taken some pretty icky falls out of koshinage because my partner "freaked out" in the middle of it. Taking the throw from an experienced nage is pretty fun though.

I think the danger in not training these techniques or falls at all is that there may be times at seminars and such that you will need this knowledge to prevent yourself from getting hurt. We don't train breakfalls out of everything in our dojo because it is hard on your body and we have a great deal of older students....but we prepare them enough to take a breakfall if necessary to prevent injury. My Sensei always says that the two most dangerous people at seminars are the malicious and the inept. You should be prepared for both just in case.
Quote:
Mike Logan wrote: View Post
While technically a choice, it's one most people would never make, but the chance to even perform ukemi as an option is only earned through practice. Depending on nage's execution of shihonage, as you say, uke has the choice, but it has to be perceived.

The shihonage that ends with uke in a backfall position before nage, I believe, would likely produce the same effect on an untrained individual. The shiho that calls for a breakfall escape is not a throw so much as it is a nasty arm bar. An arm-f.u.b.a.r. if you will, and someone with no clue of what was coming should expect to hear some grisly popping sounds.

That makes me wonder about the actual use of some aikido 'throws'. If you actually did a kotogaeshi, or kaitenage on an aggressor, it seems you would have more likely a chance of wrecking a joint or kicking someone in the face.

dunno, happy friday folks. Seminar tomorrow. I doubt Koshi is on the menu, but I bet it could be arranged.

michael.
Quote:
Ron Tisdale wrote: View Post
Yoshinkan shihonage kuzushi (the arm is straight, not bent).

Daito ryu versions of shihonage (the arm is straight, elbow locked out, wrist locked out, shoulder pretty much locked).

You can't break fall? You can be broken ...not so much on the first but definately on the second.

Which is not to say that anyone can get those severe locks on anyone in a "live" setting. Like anything else, experience and general toughness counts.

Best,
Ron
I think I said it all in the first place: "I talked with my Sensei aobut this, he said it probably has to do with te lack of any control over the fall in such throws, compared to the typical Aikido Ukemi in which one elects to fall to "save himself".

Note the last statement. Most other throws we have, including, Shiho-Nage, Kote-Gaishi, Ikkyo.And Kaiten-Nage, and many others, in all of those Uke controls his fall, and makes a choice to save the broken joint this way.

Even if I loose my balance, I still have a choice and control in those falls and many others. I do not have that choice nor the same control in Koshi Nage or the shoulder throws (forgot the Japanese name) and a few others. And this makes my Ukemi for them very poor. Everyone has his own weak points.

Amir
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