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Jim Sorrentino wrote:
Dan, you have raised the tatemae/honne distinction in other discussions. How does it apply to the present discussion of an apparently phony ryu? Are tatemai and honne really about lying?
Jim
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Quote:
Budd Yuhasz wrote:
Dan, this is a really interesting point which I've also seen, first hand. I think there's sort of an in-group/out-group approach to lots of this types of training (from genuine koryu, fake "ko-roo", even to MMA gyms/clubs, there's often a kool kids vs. outsiders mentality) which unfortunately can transmit over to only certain people being allowed access to varying degrees of "truth", which can then be subjectively manipulated based on someone's perceived authority.
Maybe it boils down to some people ultimately training to achieve something versus some people training to belong somewhere. Then, of course, there's different levels of honesty (with oneself and others) even between and within those paradigms.
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I guess it al depends how and where you were raised. People these days have situational ethics, Corporate spin, the Japanese cultural support for half truth, even their own versions of Amish group-shunning etc.
All of which can be accomplished without lying.
I revisited this thread after having a series of discussions with certain folks in a certain art. It was their general opinion that it is easier to give a "No comment" than to offer a lie. Further it is far less harmful to all involved.
One person, who trains with a certain shihan and has an affiliated Dojo made a very clear statement. "If it isn't factually correct and the person knows it. It's a lie." It may be a "group-supported lie" (think Enron) But it was created and mandated by the head office. He went on to say. "I don't want someone like this in my life. I don't want to be associated with a person, much less an entire group who would do such a thing. and he summarilly resigned from the organization.No if's...., no and's,..... no but's.
As I said I don't really care about these sam-you-eye imposters here. Are they any less comical than many people in the martial arts world? Many of whom are there because they "have issues" in the first place. And the martial art vertical structure gives them ample support for an obviously flawed character. It easily explains the mendacity, and also the hiding and subsequent protectionism of low level skills behind a structure that you see so often in these arts. It's why I see little difference between these fabricated-out-of-whole-cloth play actors in skirts, and many so-called Budo teachers who have nothing much to show that your average high school wrestler couldn't take apart.
In the end they are both constructs. Nothing more than an illusion.
In a world of grey it is sometimes refreshing to see black and white.