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Old 09-05-2007, 05:55 AM   #248
Location: Indiana
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,311
Re: What technique would you apply to neutralize Brazilian Jujitsu attacker

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
If you are a white belt training in Yoseikan, the first technique you are going to learn is escaping from a gyaku hanmi katate dori, or jun katate dori as we call it in Yoseikan. From here, we escape and strike. We have a small number of kata to practice striking, we have kihon to practice striking, lots of different exercises that at lower level that develop precision. At high grades we grab bags and pads then we start striking targets with power and speed. But my point is this is nothing new, most people train in strikes this way.
Thank you for answering my question. Do you also spar with strikes?

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
I am always going to say be aware, when someone gets injured, I am going to tell the defender that he needs to be more aware when training. When two uke fall into each other, I am going to say be more aware. Awareness, in my opinion, and in Mochizuki Kancho's, is the key to budo.

The awareness you develop on a crowded mat is one of the most useful things you can apply to real life. Look at driving your car and sitting in traffic, some people (including me) get annoyed by selfish drivers who only care about themselves, and them get were they need to go, even at the expense of others. No one trains like this on the mats in Aikido, you may have to be patient and wait your turn, and be courteous to the others on the mat. Imagine if everyone did Aikido and learnt these values and then applied them to something like driving, how wonderful the world would be! Aikido is not just about self defence! Open your mind!

Your disrespect of men like Mochizuki and Ueshiba leads me to ask, why are you studying Aikido, and if you aren't, why are you on an Aikido board?
Questioning is not disrespectful. Maybe it is to Japanese, but luckily, I'm not Japanese. I will never stop challenging things I do not understand. It is the best method of learning I have found. It is the scientific method. I train in aikido as a hobby. I find it fun and interesting. It is not a serious pursuit of mine. Grappling and ring fighting are serious pursuits of mine. I post here because I find the conversation interesting. Except for when people get sticks up their butts and start saying that questioning someones ideas, especially someone no longer alive, is disrespectful. In fact, that, I feel is disrespectful to me. I have only posed questions on the usefulness of the material you presented to my questions. I have not said Ueshiba was wrong. In fact I have always stuck to the core that I don't care what spiritual stuff you study, it is the method of practice (what you are doing with your body) that builds martial technique.

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
No, but all of these things will help you avoid the situation in the first place. Then why does a dog walker or chess player need to know how to knock someone out, if they no not to get caught in unfavourable situations, or what streets not to walk?
But this has nothing to do with neutralizing a bjj attacker. This is obvious self defense stuff. I don't need self defense. Why? Because I don't have out in bad areas. My parents taught me this. I didn't need martial arts to teach me morals, ideals, or awareness.

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
All I can say for sure is that after 9 years, I could lay out an 8 year old, or a granny, or the punk who was high on drugs that I defended myself against, with a punch to the chin. In all of these situations I would not need to do this, in the last one I didn't!

To do the same to a MMA who competes, I have no idea how much training I will need! I suspect more than him. But right now, I will go to the ground with him. But still probably lose, I am not deluded. I would like to never have to fight on the ground, and maybe one day I will be able to do the fabled techniques. But most importantly I never plan to be in a situation were I need to defend my self against a MMA, eg the octagon!
So the method of practice is inefficient? It is good that you are honest. There is nothing wrong with inefficient training providing you know it is such. Have you taken the time to examine what makes the training inefficient? Is it a lack of training time? Poor training methods? Lack of sparing? A lack of fitness? Perhaps it is simply not designed to build martial skill.

My point with this is that a bjj guy's training is very efficient for what he is trying to do. In very short periods of time, they become extremely competent on the ground. This is a testament of their method of training, and why strategy that deal with them typically need to be based around something other then allowing them to clinch. Judo, boxing, MT, some forms of karate, wrestling, and MMA also have similar methods of training with similar results.

After 9 years of any one of those arts you would be a very dangerous person to deal with. In fact I would not have a likely have a chance. Yet you are telling me that against a trained fighter, you have no idea your level of skill, what you can do, or if you are even ready to try to deal with them. I see this as a flaw in awareness, you obviously are not aware of your own physical abilities. You said you would likely need more training then them. At 9 years you have more training then any blue belt or purple belt in bjj, almost double in fact. At 9 years a Mauy Thai striker would probably kill a blue belt before he could close the distance, a judo guy would toss him around like a rag doll in the clinch, an MMA fighter would normally be way better in all ranges then that bjj blue belt.

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
My goal is self defence against the most likely attacker, I don't think someone sniffing drugs is going to be training in BJJ. So, YES. He may pull me down to the ground and try stuff because watching the UFC he has got the bright idea that "ground fighting is the best."
That is great that you know what you are training for. I personally don't agree with the lowest common denominator training. I find the attitude flawed. Training for the most skilled of fighters covers unskilled fighters, but the inverse is not true. I have no reason to continue bjj if I was following your training method. At blue belt, I have not found an untrained person who has come into the gym that I can not control and submit without effort. Even when they are twice my size. But I still keep training. Because I've seen the difference when that big guy comes in with a few years of high school wrestling, and his size, positional awareness and mild skill, and strength are enough to make me useless. And as I keep training to deal with more skilled opponents in any area, the unskilled ones become even easier.

Plus this thread is about neutralizing a bjj attacker. Basically you are saying you are not training to have the skills to do so. This makes the point mute.

Graham Wild wrote: View Post
How many times do I need to tell you I train to fight on the ground! Yoseikan Aikido includes the ground fighting from judo. My personal experience of cleaning up a black belt in judo here I Australia, every time on the floor, and then having my arse handed to me by a purple belt Yoseikan Aikidoka in the US, tells me that the ground fighting we do is good.

I think the point here is that you can be that good, to achieve it takes your life time, then you probably won't ever need or want to use it.

I did not say you did not know how to fight on the ground. That is also not what I asked. What I asked was, "Are more direct methods of defense against a grappler (such as bjj, judo, etc) not going to foster the same awareness?"

I'll refine this a little to make my question clearer.

As I have stated, based only on the descriptions and self admissions you have made on your training, that it is inefficient and building martial skill. So my question is:

Do you feel that sport based training such as boxing, Mauy Thai, bjj, judo, etc not going to build awareness? This seems to be the key component in your self defense strategy. I would think that bjj, boxing, etc would all build situational awareness that would give the exact same benefits. If you do not feel this is true, I would like to know what you are doing in your training that builds awareness faster or better then sport based martial arts. Further more, what are they not doing that leads to this lack of awareness?

- Don
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough" - Albert Einstein
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