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Old 07-31-2007, 07:49 PM   #21
Ellis Amdur
Location: Seattle
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 811
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Re: Ellis Amdur's Post on Aikido Journal

Oh please, Mother of God (and I'm Jewish) - not again!!! AGGHHGHGHGHGH Let this bundle of quotes put a stake through the heart of the question that will never die even though, most of the time, it was never asked!

Iwata Ikusai of aikido: "Ueshiba Sensei respected Takeda Sensei and studied under him. Takeda Sensei was very good technically. Ueshiba Sensei did his best to serve his master, Takeda Sensei, during his occasional visits to the dojo."

Tada Hiroshi (postwar aikido, please note) "Ueshiba Sensei always spoke very respectfully of his own teachers, including Sokaku Takeda Sensei and the Reverend Onisaburo Deguchi. The thing I remember most clearly from his talks about Daito-ryu is that he said he thought that it had a very excellent training method."

Kondo Katsuyuki (Daito-ryu, talking of aikido sensei's): '"Also although it was only indirectly, I have heard about Sokaku Takeda Sensei many times from Kenji Tomiki Sensei and Minoru Mochizuki Sensei." --Later-- "This is just my personal opinion, but Morihei Sensei studied Daito-ryu for over twenty years and served Sokaku Takeda Sensei as his master. Sokaku Sensei looked after Morihei Sensei as his student in various ways. There are many stories about this aspect of their relationship, illustrating the courtesy of a student towards his master and the affection of a master towards his student. This relationship continued for a period of time, and at a certain point Morihei Sensei began to seek his own path and eventually created modern aikido. Morihei Sensei was a great person, and I believe that anybody who can be called great always exceeds his master. I do not know that Morihei Ueshiba Sensei exceeded his master, Sokaku Takeda Sensei, in terms of technical ability, but I think that realistically speaking, Morihei Sensei far exceeded Sokaku Sensei in terms of number of students and also the extent of his reputation."

Tomiki Kenji (aikido) - "It may be only a digression but there is a certain person who studied longer under Takeda Sensei than Ueshiba Sensei. He is Mr. Kodo Horikawa, now 80 and very old." (interpretation - not only did aikido come from DR, but it still exists, and didn't end with Ueshiba.)

Saito Morihiro (post-war aikido): "O-Sensei told me often about the period when he trained in Daito-ryu. When he and I would work in the fields, were drinking tea or took meals together or sometimes when I would massage his shoulders or tap his legs he would tell me various stories." QUESTION Did he also talk about techniques?
"No, not much. Other subjects came out naturally. O-Sensei had a deep relationship with Daito-ryu."

Shirata Rinjiro (aikido), speaking of how beginners were taught at the Kobukan: "They learned techniques starting with the "ikkajo" of Daito-ryu Jujutsu from the uchideshi."

Kunigoshi Takako (aikido): " I received a makimono scroll entitled Daito Ryu. It seems to me that the name Aikido came into use just a little before the war started. It was almost as if the name Aikido was thought to actually indicate the Daito Ryu. Later whenever I was asked about it I always answered that it was Takeda Sokaku Sensei's tradition (ryu)."

OK? OK? Yeah, it's a public forum, but I'm so tired of getting side-tracked into a discussion of something I've not written, that was only a subject of debate among NON-JAPANESE SPEAKERS ANYWAY BEFORE PRANIN (B.P) and which get's so stale and old and hackneyed, and frankly, the only place the "DENIAL OF DAITO-RYU" ever was a problem was Doshu and his court trying to publicize the art, and non-Japanese who, until Stanley Pranin, had no historical reference, which, when you think of it was only about a decade and a half after aikido hit the states, for Gawd's sake. It's like non-Japanese saying, "What, Shotokan karate started in Okinawa? I didn't know that! There was a cover up!!!!!"
The subject of what I'VE been writing and curious about is exemplified by the following quote of Okamoto Seigo.
Kodo Horikawa Sensei used to say: "Once you reach a level such as yours, you become able to execute your own techniques based on what I have taught you. I didn't learn all the techniques I do now from Sokaku Takeda Sensei." Once you master a certain level and grasp the key points you become able to execute techniques of your own. Then these techniques of yours gradually sprout branches."
AND at a certain point, when one deviates enough from the source, one is required to rename it. (Ueshiba - aikido, Inoue - Shinei Taido, Mochizuchi - Yoseikan budo). Christ - Tomiki got in trouble with the aikido folks because he DIDN'T RENAME IT, given it was seen as "different enough"

Jaysuz

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