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Old 07-05-2007, 09:10 PM   #1261
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,508
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Re: Baseline skillset

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
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David Orange wrote:
No probelemo. I don't mind at all being "called on" something, but you invariably do include a personal attack when you do it. And I invariably respond in kind.

Mike Sigman wrote:
I disagree. I think your reactions are more because you've got some sort of pride about what you think you are and who you are and you want some sort of acknowledgement of that position. My position is bluntly discussing a key point in martial arts, particularly in Aikido, and you're upset that your version of the rules aren't being followed.
Come off it, Mike. I don't have any real "position. I only state where I've been and what I've done for reference. I don't think that makes me a saint. But if the discussion were science and I had graduated from Oxford, I'd mention that. The real problem is that you initiate personal attacks and belittlement, dismissiveness and general disrespect on a personal level because you feel like people won't take you seriously unless you do. I actually find it rather cute. I was just watching The Office, where Dwight leads the junior salesman around on a goose chase in the guise of "training" him for sales. And you take that kind of attitude, as if you're the master salesman and no one else has made a sale. If you didn't act like that, you'd get a lot better responses from everyone.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
...post after post you continue this "personal issues" crap.
Let's seee.....that's you continuing "this 'personal issues' crap," isn't it? Isn't that you, right there? Like I say, your own comments are invisible to you.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Or you use it to cover what you don't know.
Hahahaha!!! See? What is that comment but a personal attack? Look in the mirror, Mike Sigman.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
See if you can discuss actual facts... much like in the discussion of the useless "ura of kiai" that you seem to have quickly dropped (describe it physically, if that isn't the case).
First, that, too, is a personal attack and belittlement. See? You do it and you're not even, apparently, conscious that you do it. Are you even conscious at all?

And saying that I "quickly dropped it"??? What does that mean? Because I don't repeat it in every post, I've suddenly dropped it? I've used that definition of aiki several times on this board, in various threads. How many times do I have to repeat it? It's a direct definition of kiai as stated by someone who was senior to both Shioda and Tohei.

And obviously, you aren't conscious that I did describe "ura of kiai" in physical terms several posts back, replying to Rob. Read the thread.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I'm easily qualified to comment on Aikido, David, despite any comments trying to say that I'm not. And if you feel it's germane, please feel free to drag Taiji into the discussion, since the basic principles are going to be the same. Logically, though, if you don't really understand the basics of Aikido... which a number of us have stated... then you cannot understand the logic of Taiji. So your statement is groundless. Instead of making your arguments on assertions and then complaining that you're being picked on when someone calls you on them, please try to win your arguments with well-founded and demonstrable facts. All of us have stepped up to the pump for public "give it a try" stuff and all you've done is some focused personality attack while pumping up the air in your own tires. Defeat my argument with cold fact, if you can.
Errr....just what in that diatribe was "an argument"?

I'm as qualified to orate on tai chi as you are on aikido, okay? Which is to say, I know only a little bit about it. I will accept that you know a lot about tai chi, but you really didn't much scratch the surface on aikido. Basically, your claim is that you can use tai chi principles to do "the techniques" of aikido. But I don't agree. And as for "complaining that you're being picked on," you do that more than anyone. You attack everyone, then squeal when someone gives it back to you. If I get valid criticism, I consider it. I get invalid criticism, I shrug it off. I get criticism from you, it's just wind.

You know that song, "You didn't know it. You didn't think it could be done. In the final end, he won the war after losing every battle." So let it blow, man. But better, have a good, realistic look at yourself.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
"Call out"???? When I ask someone for specifics and they (like you) never give them, that's "call out"?
I meant "call them on it." You would call Tohei if you didn't know it was him. If Shioda posted some stuff straight out of his books, under the screen name "Aikighost" or "Lilaikidoman" or something, your replies would invariably begin, "Lilaikidoman, you don't have a clue. You clearly don't understand how aikido works."

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I give face not by playing some silly role-game of pretending that someone has a mystical rank in the Masons or Aikido, but by treating them as an equal in the discussions and asking blunt questions. You and a few others think that we should all be playing the Masonic Lodge version of Aikido and anyone who doesn't is "calling you out". What absolute hogwash.
As I say, I meant "calling them on it," the phrase you used in the post I replied to. But the fact is, you don't treat anyone as an equal in the discussions. You don't show anyone basic respect, so you just don't get much in return.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
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David Orange wrote:
....he told me that he wanted me to always teach his budo. Which, since I taught it in Japan, is only reasonable. If you don't like that, it's too bad.

Mike Sigman wrote:
And the reason you don't know this stuff is why?
Why, it's simply because Mike Sigman says I don't know it, never having met me, never having visited the old dojo in Japan, never having gotten his own black belt in aikido and needing to belittle me to raise his own esteeem. Hey, belittle on, big man. It will make you feel much bigger.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
What you seem to miss is that any good teacher, whether Ueshiba or Yang Cheng Fu or Chen Fa Ke or whoever, has thousands of students who lean their reputation against the big name...... yet each teacher in reality only has a few really good students.
Yes. And Ueshiba was one of Takeda's top students. And Mochizuki was one of Ueshiba's top students. And I knew and trained extensively with all of Mochizuki's top students. I never said I was one of his top students. . . but whose top student were you?

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The fact that you keep leaning your own reputation against some sort of nice and diplomatic remark your teacher made... instead of arguing facts...
It wasn't a diplomatic remark to me when he told me he wanted me to always teach his budo. It was a request he made to me. He called me down to teach for him at his dojo and he wanted me to continue teaching for him through my life. So make of that what you will, picking your nose while reading it.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Quote: David Orange wrote:
You love to drop Chen Xiao Wang's name and tell us what he said to and about you. That's nice. Don't criticize me for doing the same with my teacher, and, moreover, for describing what I do in my own way. If you think it shows a lack of understanding, maybe you need to read into it as much as you read into Shioda's comments or Tohei's. Their descriptions are very simple and I've yet to see one that really "says" what you make it out to say. Their descriptions are closer to mine than to yours, which are closer to Chen's than to Shioda's or Tohei's.

Mike Sigman wrote:
Er, subtract out where I've used CXW's name as a counter to a "source" you have claimed.
Right. You've claimed CXW told you you were the only Westerner who knew how to move for tai chi....you claimed Liang Shou Yu as "your teacher," and so on. And I don't mind your doing it. Just don't criticize me for doing what you, yourself, do.

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Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
Er,..... by the way ... where are these facts I keep asking you for, post after post?
Well, I don't know. What facts do you keep asking for?

I did say that JMA doesn't use silk reeling. You said it does. Then you said Aikido uses silk pulling. Then you said silk pulling is basically the same as silk reeling. Then you admitted that silk pulling is a less sophisticated and refined level of ki work.....

You mean facts like that?

The main fact is that you will say anything to prove yourself right and a lot of the time you're just hoping somene hasn't read your earlier remarks on the subject.

But to be fair, give me a list of what facts you want and I'll see what I can do.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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