Thread: Yonkyo
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Old 08-17-2000, 03:51 PM   #8
Chris
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 7
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Talking

[quote]akiy wrote:
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Chris wrote:

First of all, I have read your quote of Cas Long's post and nowhere do I find any mention of the word 'pain', so I was wondering where you made the association?
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akiy wrote:

Her mentioning the necessity to manipulate the radial nerve is what brings me to think about pain in this instance.

I'm curious -- is there a way to compress the radial nerve and not cause pain?
I think we need to make a clear distinction. The compression of the radial nerve is the technical requirement of Yonkyo. The fact that it causes pain is of secondary importance. It is the way of holding and applying pressure to the wrist that creates the condition that is called Yonkyo or Tekubi Osae.
I have not presented the condition of pain as a pre-requisite for the successful execution of the technique. Merely that when executed correctly and precisely, pain will more often than not, be the result. In my opinion, if you do not pressure the wrist it is not Yonkyo and it should then be called something else.


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Chris wrote:

The technique's definition is after all ‘Tekubi Osae' or wrist pinning or control.
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akiy wrote:

"Osae" comes from the verb "osaeru" which basically means "to hold down."
This is correct. I think in terms of the English language, that we are using here, ‘pinning' and ‘control', which are also dictionary meanings for ‘Osae', convey the same meaning as ‘hold down', or are we getting bogged down with semantics?

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Chris wrote:

Having said that, I am wondering why ‘O'-Sensei would have spent many long arduous years codifying the techniques of Aikido into the specific groupings that we know today
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akiy wrote:

Inasmuch as I understand it, he didn't. The naming schemes and the categorization of the techniques were applied by his students, not by the founder. I could be wrong, though...
You are quite right, insofaras the nomenclature of techniques is concerned, it was created by the Founder's students. What I was referring to, and I apologise for not having been clearer, is the photographic and textual evidence left to us in the only manual where the Founder posed for the technical sequences himself; his 1938 manual ‘Budo'. I belive that this serves as a clear indication of a development towards the techniques as we know them today. Hence my reference to it below…

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Chris wrote:

On page 49 of ‘O'-Sensei's training manual Budo it states in the note for technique 15. (Yonkyo):
"Placement of your (left) hand in this technique is as follows: hold the opponent's wrist tightly with both the little and ring fingers and use the knuckle at the base of the index finger to apply strong pressure to his pulse.
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akiy wrote:

I used to have a copy of the original "Budo Renshu" that the founder wrote in Japanese. I wish I still had it.

However, no where above does the founder refer to "pain"...
Jun, you are confusing the older, 1933 manual, with line drawings by Takako Kunigoshi, with the older 1938 photographic manual.
You are quite right to say that there is no reference to pain, but I did not say that there was. I was merely stating the technical requirement in Yonkyo, as stated by the Founder, to strongly pressure the Uke's wrist.

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Chris wrote:

if balance-breaking was the sole function and purpose of the techniques. After all, there are easier ways to unbalance someone than Nikyo or Sankyo!
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akiy wrote:

I never said that the sole purpose of techniques was kuzushi. I just said that the kuzushi aspect for me is more important than the causastion of pain that so many people I've met focus on.
I don't think that is actually what you said originally :

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akiy wrote:

Better in my opinion to treat techniques like nikkyo and yonkyo as balance breaking techniques than pain-producing ones.
I'm sorry, but to me that reads as though the techniques of Nikyo and Yonkyo are for the purpose of balance-breaking. Maybe I did misread, but my question remains; are there not easier ways of balance-breaking than complex manipulation of the joints?

You have since added
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[snip]
the causastion of pain that so many people I've met focus on.
I would agree with you that many people are fixed on the idea of causing pain. My contention is that the techniques of Aikido will cause pain when executed correctly, but that pain is not the aim of the technique. Nowhere have I said that pain is to be relied upon.

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Chris wrote:

I would say that 'pain' is a by-product of the technique being executed correctly.
[snip]
As you have rightly pointed out, Yonkyo is still possible without ‘pain', so the complete form of the technique must be studied from the initial un-balancing right up to the final pin.
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akiy wrote:

That's about all I wanted to say.
Then we are in agreement! It came across to me when I read your post that pain in the techniques was almost something to be avoided....

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Chris wrote:

I would venture to suggest the you slightly misinterpreted the sense of Cas's post, since she spoke only of finding it difficult to locate the radial nerve and cause compression in certain body types and then went on to say that full use of the hips and body is necessary to complete the movement and un-balance Uke.
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akiy wrote:

I can't certainly say what Cas meant because I'm not her. I took what she wrote about needing to compress the radial nerve as meaning that you have to cause pain. And, as I wrote above, I ventured to say that pain is not necessary in yonkyo (or nikyo, sankyo, etc).
As I said in my post, the pressure on the wrist and the compression of the radial nerve is the condition of Yonkyo. What makes the technique effective is the use of concentrated hip power, which will be successful whether there is pain or not. The form of the technique nonetheless, remains outwardly the same.

I am very interested to know who you apply Nikyo and Sankyo without causing any pain to your Uke.
Also how do the techniques of Ikkyo through Yonkyo strengthen the body if there is no stimulation of the joints.


akiy wrote:

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makes me want to poke out an eyeball or two...
Hmmmm…now there's real pain!


Chris Tozer
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