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Old 04-15-2007, 04:03 PM   #37
Paul Sanderson-Cimino
Dojo: Yoshokai; looking into judo
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 424
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Re: MMA as catalyst for change in Aikido?

Thank you very much for the replies! This is more than I'd even hoped for - great to hear such detail from someone with firsthand experience in both MMA and aikido. (What is your experience with both, by the way, if I could ask?) I do have some further questions, if you'll humor me.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
First, most people will not commit to their strikes taking them offbalance like in the dojo, instead they throw combos with good balance, and they always retract their firsts to a good guard.
I admit I'm a little confused by this. In my experience, a good uke strikes in such a way that they could hit or miss and in neither case be off-balance. Rather, nage does something (blocks, deflects, evades, etc.) that makes uke unwillingly lose balance; they then try to regain it over the course of the technique, while nage keeps them moving with tai sabaki and atemi. (Although I have seen a technique or two that seems to be versus a "suicide attack" where uke -does- throw him or herself off balance with the force of the strike. But that's the exception.)

I've seen aikido waza where nage uses an irimi movement, coupled with a sort of outside 'guarding block' (rather than deflecting block) to perform something essentially similar to shomenuchi iriminage. Ever tried this sort of thing? What makes it hard in practice?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Another problem I've noticed is that the wrist when taped and gloved is very hard to manipulate. I catch wrist locks a lot in bjj now. [...] However, I have not gotten a single wrist lock to work in MMA, even against people I catch with wrist locks in bjj constantly.
Interesting. Just to clarify: do you think they work better in BJJ because of the lack of gloves/tape? Despite not being able to use atemi in BJJ?

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
Reaching from that position however exposes the head, and if you screw up, you are at a much higher risk of getting caught by a shot in the chin.
I'm trying to visualize this. What sorts of aikido techniques require you to "reach"?

Quote:
Don Magee wrote: View Post
Judo is a good example. If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA. This is why wrestling take downs have become more dominate, the rules allow less risk when you fail.
"If your opponent is off balance, you are in a world of trouble in MMA." I'm guessing that's a typo, but I'm having some trouble figuring out what you meant to type.

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Don Magee wrote: View Post
You know the guy can not punch you in the back of the head, and he can't knee your face with 3 points down. So you can shoot and if you screw up you are ok. Try a hip or shoulder throw and screw up, you are getting lifted slammed and pounded. Now look at most aikido throws. You are even worse off if those fail.
That sounds very reasonable. Have you ever tried casual sparring with those rules relaxed? Perhaps substituting hand-taps for punches or downward elbows to the back of the head or neck? If you have tried something like that, did it significantly drop the "success rate" or "percentage" of wrestling-style takedowns?

Thanks to you as well, Kevin. I'll ask a few follow-up questions of you as well, if it's okay. It's really made my day to get this kind of info.

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Things like nikkyo, ikkyo, and shionage do not work because they are very complex and require a certain degree of either cluelessness from your opponent or a spirit of cooperation that typically is not seen in a MMA context.
and
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
Again, good for learning principles that apply to the dynamic of a fight, but not a very good/efficient means for finishing your opponent.
Can a martial art really have techniques that "require cooperation"? Drills or principle-based exercises, maybe, like kokyu dosa. Still, it seems like aikido techniques should have a purpose beyond just "principle exercises".

I noticed that a couple times, you used terms like "as practiced by most" and "typically". This to me brings up the question of styles of aikido. Which style do you practice? (Both of you, I guess?) Do you think that pre-war style practice makes one better able to actually implement waza as "viable takedowns" rather than "principle exercises"?

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Kevin Leavitt wrote: View Post
I have used various nikkyo type pins to submit on the ground,
Interesting. When do these generally make sense for you? It seems like they're more useful when you've just brought someone down with ikkyo or nikkyo; I guess you could also sweep the arm up or something.
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