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Old 04-09-2007, 12:27 PM   #62
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Dojo: Takagashira Dojo
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 519
United Kingdom
Re: The internal 'how to' thread... let's hope

Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
I dunno.... see my post about "nikkyo" to understand my perspective.
Got a link? Must've missed that one.

Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
So far, nothing you have said indicated to me that you already do these things quite to the full level. You may be doing a variant (like in the nikkyo example), but I'd bet good money that in many ways you're doing something quite different.
That's entirely possible. I don't think so but we'll leave it at that. I myself am usually the first to admit that I don't do these things to the full level, I'm just a student of them. I've said that many times Mike. I think I'm only now just getting to the beginning understanding of the really good stuff, every day lately it seems I have lightbulb moments where things I thought I knew become much clearer and I realise that they are in fact something slightly different. But I'm pretty sure, well as sure as I can be, that I've seen the real deal (and I'm not just talking about my own teacher here either). So either way we're left with the notion that what I do in my training isn't exactly what we're really talking about (something I freely admit), what is less certain is whether that's because I'm just not that good yet or whether it's because it is actually something different. I'm betting the former, you can put your money on the latter. We'll see what we come up with....

Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
The reason I say that is that this stuff is tricky to learn and someone who really does it would have said something noting the differences rather than indicating that it's normal stuff.
I don't agree with that statement. Remember my whole position has always been that these things are a part of aikido (not all of it to be sure) and are not actually absent as many people have assumed. Given that point of view I'm bound to begin by saying that things are more similar than different. One of the reasons I've been trying to start more useful threads is to discuss the subtleties and differences in more detail, I may be wrong in my first assumption that these skills are are the same, only time will tell. Certainly there are differences, and if it's what you want to hear then I'll give details of the one of the differences I've noticed.

Rob talks about 'the cross' used to generate power. These things are not commonly taught in ki aikido, usually because we're not trying to learn how to kick and punch with large amounts of power. We are instead trying to learn to be centred and move in such a way that we can absorb and re-direct the power of an attacker. The two skills are not the same, but they are related to each other IMO. That's one quick difference for you. Sound reasonable?

I've found it, like you I suspect, quite ironic that discussions about the founders internal skills which are what made him so noteworthy as a martial artist IMO are in the 'non-aikido martial traditions forum'. For now I think that's where they should stay for the sake of maintaining aikiweb as the pleasant place it has always been. What I find even more ironic and always have done is that people are looking outside of aikido for something that as far as I'm aware is still inside it. People would rather go to Tai Chi teachers to learn this stuff than to the guys who are students of the founders chief instructor.... politics.

Mike Sigman wrote: View Post
If someone really can do the tricky stuff that it takes to understand this, they know the tricky stuff is there... if you see what I mean. The general descriptions, like in the nikkyo example, sound the same to someone who can do something close to it, but there's a very clear difference. And again, for the umpteenth time, I'm really careful about this stuff because I've been at times the student on the receiving end of some wasted years by teachers who thought they already "knew this stuff". It's not a "who's superior" sort of peeing match at all.

Incidentally, there have been people who posted on this forum (and others) that I can tell they do indeed understand the basics of this stuff (Dan or Rob would be examples that pop to mind, but there are a few others). But there are levels of this stuff. I can tell where someone's level generally tops off by the way they describe things; and I'll bet someone better than me can understand where my level tops off. But I would be able to spot who was better than me from what they say... then I'd go check them out personally and I'd learn from them. The last thing I'd try to do would be to argue them to a standstill because I would, as I've said before, prefer to progress myself than to impress beginners or students. I'm always looking to learn. Maybe that's why I don't spend my time having a school and being a teacher. I don't think I'm good enough yet.


Mike Sigman
Well FWIW my general impression is that a lot of folks have dismissed Tohei's approach out of hand because: 'it's aikido, and these things aren't done in aikido anymore so ki soc stuff can't be right or even close to what we're talking about'. Someone who studies with Dan recently mentioned that supposedly unbendable arm takes a few years to learn and even then it's not the same as what Dan does. Unbendable arm at it's lowest level is something that can be taught in a couple of minutes not a couple of years. Comments like that make it quite obvious that he was totally unaware of what is actually taught in ki soc circles and has dismissed it out of hand. It isn't any wonder to me then that he would be impressed with what Dan can do if that's the place he's coming from. That doesn't mean that what Dan does isn't worthwhile or impressive. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot of misunderstanding of ki soc ki development exercises and general methodology. I'm pretty sure that you yourself suffer from that from time to time too Mike, based on the things you've said. I have a suspicion that you've probably not spent as much time with ki soc or their derivatives as you would have us think.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's just an impression I get from reading what you say. It's not intended as a personal attack, so please don't take it as one.


"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."
-Martin Luther King Jr
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