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Old 03-09-2007, 02:25 PM   #4
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Aikido as External Art -or- Where's the Chewy Center?

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
"Finally, we ended up pitting our strength against each other. I sat down and said to Tenryu, "Please try to push me over. Push hard, there's no need to hold back." Since I knew the secret of Aikido, I could not be moved an inch." I'll point out that OSensei does not say that since he understands the basics or kihon of Aikido he could not be moved. Rather he was unmovable because he knew the "secrets of Aikido."
I've said this exact same thing-how many times?
I'm left with frolks either telling me
a. How dare you. You left and you don't know aikido.
b. How dare you. Only Ueshiba understands what he meant
c. How dare you. I still do AIkido and I KNOW what ueshab meant and that aint it.

To which I off to "do" aikido with them and they can't "do" a freakin thing to me. Why?
And they? I moved all over the place.
Does it leave a sour taste in my mouth? Ya. Listening to all this debate and grandious looong explanations and then I touch them and they have nothing. Over, and over and over. From shodan to 8 th dan. I remain unimpressed. Not so much by the techniques -I wrote them off many years ago, but rather by any real skills that express Ueshiba's admonisions and training. And then to realize others have these skills and don't openly teach them...Argh

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
Again, we are talking about an external teaching paradigm, one where the external form eventually develops internal skills. In clearer terms, the techniques of aikido had led to his being able to be unmovable (external paradigm) rather than his skill of being unmovable leading to his ability to do aikido techniques (internal paradigm). …
Actually I think you have that backward.
I dnlt care if we call it an internal art-thats a name. But it was EXACTLY his internal "skills" in Daito ryu that led to Takeda, Sagawa and Kodo being lauded and Deguchi and many many others recognizing Ueshiba as brilliant. I just give the credit where it belongs. You guys don't. And if he added to it good on him.
It is perfectly ridiculous to assume the leading martial art guys of the day were so stupid that they were blown away by his "techniques." What they felt was his DR Aiki.Which is a compendium of internal skills. It is these skills that make the pretzel logic plausible
NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
So you can talk-correctly IMO-about Aikido's degridation to the external art it is today in many peoples hands.
I keep looking past the low level folks and all the "twirlin and dancin" to what it can become....again in the right hands.
Ueshiba-ha Daito ryu was always based on internal skills. Period. His change to aikido was a change to bounce away and cast off with various uses of aiki. Aiki-age which is peng jin- being just one of them. It was his vision and choice to no longer use the more Koryu oriented DR skills to bring the uke in for a kill (wrapped up with the legs and other postions for knife work) but to realize he could remain unntouchable and fullfill his vision just by casting them off. Which is where and why Aikido's unique Ukemi can about.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
So perhaps instead of blasting everyone and their teachers for doing it all wrong, we could start anew with a different tone, say, "Hey, I think I know something that will really improve what you're doing and save you a lot of time and frustration over the years, but you'll have to trust me and try something new." …
Sounds like you're quoting me in what I've said to many when I am NOT talking about MMA. When I talk about Aikido its what I said and showed to all recent visitors. I've even told people not to say the're training here. JUst go and improve their skills and art. Who cares who gets credit.
Its not who's right
Its what is right.

Quote:
Christian Moses wrote: View Post
So for those of you who skipped to the end (and frankly, who could blame you…) Aikido, because of its teaching paradigm is actually an external art which could benefit greatly from insights gained through internal arts and practices. …
We may never agree but no biggie.
Aikido is and always was meant to be an internal art. Its the only way its technical syllabus has much merit. I just can't pressume to insule Ueshiba as an imbecile who didn't know what he was talking about, or showed and did. Nor that the many extremely experienced martial artists who saw and felt him were awed by his wristy twisties and the idea of turning form an attack.
They were never that stupid or easily impressed.
We were.

Dan

Last edited by DH : 03-09-2007 at 02:36 PM.
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