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Old 01-29-2007, 02:58 PM   #275
Brion Toss
Dojo: Aikido Port Townsend
Location: Port Townsend, Wa.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
Re: Baseline skillset

Mike Sigman wrote:
I'm not sure what "math" you're talking about, Brion, since I am the one who keeps trying to get the topic down to short, common-sense nomenclature. Remember the pictures and diagrams I've posted?
I remember the pictures and diagrams, and so very much else. You might be being selective in describing the nature of your posts.

Here's the real problem. You're arguing often directly against me and my approach, so you go to the lengths (as you did in this thread) of sniping. You didn't argue the functional aspects of the discussion, you went into some vagary about what argument appears compelling to you. In doing that, and in doing as you did in the quote above, you take a publicly-stated position that you don't understand what I'm talking about and you disagree with it.
You do not get to say what the real problem is. You are mistaken in saying that I am arguing directly against you, or your approach, and I do not believe that I have been guilty of sniping ("malicious, underhanded remark or attack"]. And couching my terms with phrases like, "to the extent that I understand," is a long ways from saying that I don't understand; it is an attempt at humility.

Fine. In a debate sense, I could be wrong. In a functional sense, though, I can and have shown these things well enough and with enough disparate people and groups over a long-enough time that I'm more than certain I can bet every dime I have that I am telling the functional truth, as it sits.
As I stated in the post that you are refering to, " ... Mr. Sigman can do what he says he can, and I'm sorry if I seemed to indicate otherwise." I also stated that I have personal experience with the kind of forces you have described, and that I find them significant and valuable. I have no doubt that you can demonstrate them. I am glad that you are demonstrating them. I am not accusing you of overstating, let alone lying. I am only saying, in the context of this thread, that what you propose is not directly pertinent to a basic, fundamental set of Aikido skills.

This means that since you don't understand these fairly basic things we're discussing, you don't know them.
Conclusion based, once again, on an unproved assumption.

It means that you have not been taught them, inferring that your teacher doesn't know them.
And again.

In other words, when you go outside of the discussion of issues and attack the peripherals, it works two ways.
My original post was intended as an analysis of the preceding ten or so pages of posts, focusing on yours and Mr. Mead's opinions. As such, it was admittedly and necessarily peripheral, but I do not think that it was an attack on peripherals.

Hopefully, based on the fact that you don't personally care for me (a totally useless tangent to *any* viable discussion, IMO), you want my discussion of basics to be wrong.
Mike, I don't know you, except to the extent that I have read and pondered a tiny fraction of your posts here. I do not have a basis for forming a personal like or dislike. What you say often angers me, but just as often leads me to reevaluate my opinions. Sometimes simultaneously. So there's another "fact" that isn't a fact at all. As for wanting your discussion of basics to be wrong, I would like to believe that I have reason to disagree with you, based on information, not prejudice.

What you've really done is signal to at least 40 to 50 fairly knowledgeable people that read this forum that there is a problem related to your teacher.
Only if they are as talented at drawing shaky conclusions as you appear to be. And in any event, how is this spectral group of fairly knowledgeable peoples' opinion pertinent to the issues?

My suggestion is, and has been, that when debating such a basic topic as skillsets like the ki/kokyu things, people should question things that need questioning, comment intelligently, ask questions if something is not clear.... but be very cautious in asserting judgements, because the assertions themselves are telling.

I.e., if there is a conflict with "what you know" and the simple baseline skillset that I've mentioned... the same basics that Rob, Dan, Ushiro, etc., all seem to be focusing on... maybe the problem is closer to home?
Again, I have no conflict with the skillset you've mentioned, only a question as to its suitability as Aikido basics. And incidentally, I have no reports on Rob and Dan, but from what I've heard from Ikeda sensei and other practitioners, Ushiro is not focusing on the same thing at all.

Last edited by Brion Toss : 01-29-2007 at 03:08 PM.
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