Mike Haft wrote:
New students yes. Not once they get much higher than that. Not everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Not everyone is physically strong enough to resist such a technique and learn from it like that. The purpose of doing things that way is to build students up rather than teach them that all aikido is is a way for the teacher to tear them down with pain. I leave that to the thugs you find elsewhere. Then when people discover they have collected too many injuries over the years as a result of training in a brutal fashion they come to us and find that they were rather stupid for doing it that way. Smashing your knuckles against a brick wall until they bleed is something only an idiot does. Picking up joint injuries from training at full resistance from the start is another thing only a fool would do. I'm not trying to break people, not tryng to teach them to surrender, my goal is to get them to my level of ability so that I have more people to practise with and learn from. That's all.
I think you need to clarify what you mean by 'surrender', but as you say its for another thread perhaps. I'll only add here that I dod NOT say that I threw myself again while more advanced. I said he would probably have to hit me now to make it have an effect, I never said that effect was that I threw myself. Although I didn't say it wasn't to be fair.
Getting back to the who takes ukemi idea. Are you sure you're just not confusing sutemi with ukemi? How would you define the difference and when would you advocate one over the other? Especially as you used the word surrender.
I'm earnestly trying to get an idea across and not to argue with you ...fair enough? I was just going by what you wrote. Which as a model, seemed like a typical description of aikido waza and ukemi. Taking rolls and falls as an option to a lock or strike. No harm no foul.
I just cannot image falling down as a response to someone trying to lock me in anything or to being hit. I mean in the clearest sense with the way we train if you hit... we will respond... yes. But it is a positive one that is invasive and controlling either in intent or motion. They are different
I thought I did a fairly good job of explaining myself, Mike. I agree with you about body damage and wrecked joints and hands. I've been doing this along time. I'm fit as a fiddle. I run lift and train every day. EVERY day. I have no injuries or debiliting joints from the way I train.
We train smart, eat smart and we live smart. I have men who have trained with me for years. Yes we have occasional injuries like everyone else but no more no less. Please don't misread my lengthy replies as muscle bound body wreckers. Where did that come from? We are in agreement about not doing -or having to do-things that wreck your body.
Sutemi and Ukemi
I think I just might be one of the last people you would ever know who would confuse sutemi with ukemi. I adore sutemi waza. It's great as an active ukemi but its not the same thing.
I think its you who are having trouble with understanding my points. mostly due to your training goals.
Ukemi as a different model
Mat Hughes and B.J. penn were both taking Ukemi
So were Lidell and Coutoure
So was Hagler and Sugar Ray
Ueshiba every day on the mat
To assume you need to move like an aikidoka to take or receive technique is a huge error.
I think if you review again the answers I have given you already. I spoke of beinging folks along before you did. Taking ukemi for them so I can lead them to where I want them to go. Including getting poked yanked and thrown so they learn better.....faster.
That IS caring Mike. Wouldn't you agree? It sounds like you agree with that but we are talking past eache other a bit.
Please remember there are thousands of guys training in MMA ever week...no one is geeting rushed to the hospital all over the place.
Then again if tyou go back a few years Aikido Journal published a damning report on the injuries in AIkido Dojo at university in Japan.
Was Aikido more violent or martial?
Hardly, it was through cooperation and passive agressive treatment of students.
There are ways to train agressively...and safe. Taking Ukemi for your students is a great start.