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Old 11-30-2006, 09:38 AM   #300
DH
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,394
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Tom Holz wrote:
Thank you for asking. I want to get a disclaimer out early so no one thinks I'm talking with any authority yet. Mike and Dan, and Rob would all be able to comment on what little ki/kokyo skill I have, and I'll personally add that I have only three months of formal martial training. And I've never been in a fight. And I can't bench much more than the empty bar . The only thing I've got going for me is that Rob has seen me go from *nothing* to *maybe something, sometimes* after three months of sporadic solo work.

I also wouldn't say I've trained with anyone. I've met them all, and tried to ask with an open mind, "show me what and how I should train to get started".

With all of that, I found the three of them open, friendly, intelligent, and strong. They have different frameworks they use to understand the internal stuff, but much of the physical skills are *exactly* the same. It kind of surprised me, really. If you want to know how they compare to each other or to what you can already do (whether aikido, taiji, karate, bjj, boxing, etc), I encourage you to meet them yourself with an open mind. It's easy for two people to talk past each other. It's possible to do something similar in person, but a little harder.
I thought it worthwhile to quote from Hong jun shen. Mindful that his observation was regarding a "single" arts use of internal skills.

"Some people believe that taijichuan skills and techniques are all the same. Whatever one master teaches should also be taught by others. Otherwise, the master will be regarded as incompetent. In fact this is a misunderstanding in Taiji chuan. Every skillful expert will have his own techniques, characteristics and understandings. It is normal to see variations in the techniques between different martial art experts. This is because everyone has his own unique physical condition and a different psychology……….
If one's techniques are exactly the same as the master, his gong-fu will not have reached a high level…."

If he can say these things about a single art (thought it is a complex one) imagine the further complexities of different arts and different countries. Unless of course you are of the persuasion that your art has it all.
He goes on to cite what any serious JMA adept will know-Shu-Ha- Ri. The point of understanding and personal journey and experimentation. Where the jump off point comes is anyones judgement. In old Japan it happened far quicker than today

As for Tom's opinion, is it any wonder that Tom and others who have felt these things finds similar physical results from different expressed methods to get there? Whether we are rebounding force, changing force, what have you, and how we are changing in it in us is the same or not-the results may be surprisingly similar. We just don't know yet.
My point being they can be expressed individually in different arts, but the body work remains the same. But the uses, expressions and skills can get complex and must be trained over years. As for "other uses? Hong mentions even Chen fake brought in and practiced applications from other martial arts.

Here? No one here is an expert to my knowledge. No one here claims to be anything but researchers. That we each, have our own understanding, is understandable. Not everyone is as skilled as the other. While some are, some are not as well. In truth the search for the skills that We have been discussing are the finest skills known. As a skill set, they can be used in anything. And it still doesn't mean anyone person can fight with them. But then again it is not worth much to "hide" behind fighting-skill sets either.
After years of agonizing sweat, many find it difficult to put things down and start fresh.
I hope the true students don't and are still looking.

Cheers
Dan

Last edited by DH : 11-30-2006 at 09:45 AM.
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