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Old 11-29-2006, 08:28 PM   #285
David Orange
Dojo: Aozora Dojo
Location: Birmingham, AL
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,504
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So basically, on alcohol you get drunk because it only works one way with the human body, David. Same way with ki/qi... it only works one way. To argue that sake and soju are different aspects of alcohol is to miss the obvious.
But the qualities of the buzz are very different between sake and soju. Or take sake and Japanese shochu. Very different effects, though similar. But it's not mere coincidence that Japanese work and lifestyles, food, clothing, music and everything else express very different approaches to the world, and so do their martial arts. And my very point was that I have experienced remarkably different effects from Japanese and Chinese martial artists. The effects are not the same.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, this is completely wrong and I can demonstrate it. Even the "demo's" of qi abilities are the same in Chinese and Japanese. Every demo Tohei and Ueshiba did has an obvious counterpart in China. You simply are missing the obvious, no matter what you think you know of Aikido. How do you explain Ueshiba's demo's being pretty much exactly the same as the Chinese coincidence in every case?
Not at all. The Chinese do things that make people pop up off the ground and fly backward several feet. The Japanese always do some kind of throw. I've never seen any Japanese (including Ueshiba and Tohei) throw anyone like a tai chi man who lets the attacker push on his forearm, then bounces him up and backward. Ueshiba and Tohei, Mifune et al, always throw.

On the other hand, I've never seen a Chinese do the unbendable arm, the jo trick or the unpick-up-able body and I've never seen Japanese demonstrate 'iron vest' things with swords or take spear points to their throats. The ki/qi demos, in fact, are one of the most obviously different aspects of the two cultures.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Coincidence?
No co-incidence at all. They're completely different.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
David, you don't understand what ki and kokyu power really are. In other words, you don't understand the Yin-Yang of Qi and Jin. I can't help you here.
I concluded that you can't help me. You may understand what some of the Chinese concepts are, but you are really mistaken when it comes to the Japanese "counterparts" including kokyu.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
The jin forces combined with the "breath" forces of the fasicial "qi" development are "kokyu". But you should know that if you're an expert in Aikido.
I can relate to what you're trying to say there, but it's not entirely accurate.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
I shouldn't have to explain the obvious.
And you shouldn't try to explain things when you have a basic misconception about them.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
You seem to want to forget the almost complete dependence in Japanese lore and cosmology on the Chinese way of doing things.... including in the Kojiki.
Well, the US is almost entirely derived from England. But there are other influences and we end up not really very much like the Brits at all. So the Japanese. They have heavy influence from the Koreans and also from the Russians. And then they were isolated so long. They developed their own very unique sword and sword arts. And aikido is very different from tai chi and even bagua. If what you're saying were true, the Japanese would use a straight sword and their arts would look like Chinese sword arts. But they don't, either on the surface or within. There are similarities, but the emerge and mature quite differently.

Quote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Not "equatable"????? This is crazy.
Yes. They are similar but not equal and not really all that similar. One big difference is that the Chinese artists tend to live longer and they tend to be much more flexible and softer at old age than the Japanese. How do you explain that?

Best to you.

David

"That which has no substance can enter where there is no room."
Lao Tzu

"Eternity forever!"

www.davidorangejr.com
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