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Old 11-29-2006, 08:06 PM   #282
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Really, this is an absurdity. Look at Ki and Qi... do you think these are 2 different things and that all the Japanese martial arts use different things called "ki" and all the Chinese martial arts use a number of things that are called "qi" arbitrarily?

Of course not. Ki and qi are essentially the same. However, just as the Japanese and Chinese develop different types of work and develop different ways of living, dressing, playing, making music and everything else, it should be clear that they developed two very different ways of expressing qi other than mere pronunciation of the word. Just as all alcohol is fundamentally the same, ki and qi are the same thing. But Japanese sake and Chinese soju are very different types of white liquor. And so the martial arts use qi very differently.
So basically, on alcohol you get drunk because it only works one way with the human body, David. Same way with ki/qi... it only works one way. To argue that sake and soju are different aspects of alcohol is to miss the obvious.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
Ask someone like Abe or Inaba or whoever.... this idea that the Chinese qi things are different from the Japanese ki things, including "kokyu", is ludicrous except in a conversation where the level of understanding is very low.

Sorry, but I've had too much personal experience to accept that. I've felt technique from hundreds of people and there is a distinct difference in what I've felt from Chinese stylists that I never experienced from any Japanese stylist. It's not the same, especially at higher levels.
David, this is completely wrong and I can demonstrate it. Even the "demo's" of qi abilities are the same in Chinese and Japanese. Every demo Tohei and Ueshiba did has an obvious counterpart in China. You simply are missing the obvious, no matter what you think you know of Aikido. How do you explain Ueshiba's demo's being pretty much exactly the same as the Chinese coincidence in every case? Coincidence?
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
Mike Sigman wrote:
So that effectively dismisses the term "kokyu ryoku" if you're correct, eh?
It doesn't dismiss the term. Kokyu Ryoku is power expressed through a mind and body integrated via the breath. As Ikeda Sensei said in the article, it is "power through kokyu," not "power of kokyu." But like I pointed out to Ellis earlier, if you want to define kokyu ryoku as "power of kokyu," then you have to define sei ryoku as "power of sei," (power of correctness) which should show you that that's not the correct usage. Even though there is power in correctness, the real power is "through" correctness.
David, you don't understand what ki and kokyu power really are. In other words, you don't understand the Yin-Yang of Qi and Jin. I can't help you here. The jin forces combined with the "breath" forces of the fasicial "qi" development are "kokyu". But you should know that if you're an expert in Aikido. I shouldn't have to explain the obvious.
Quote:
David Orange wrote:
The problem is that you are off on your explanations because of a biased belief that the Japanese and Chinese ways are equatable and that you can explain both ways through a rough approximation of Western scientific thinking--both premises being flawed. So while ki can be expressed in many ways and can take many forms, it still is only one "thing".
I give up. You seem to want to forget the almost complete dependence in Japanese lore and cosmology on the Chinese way of doing things.... including in the Kojiki. Not "equatable"????? This is crazy.

Regards,

Mike Sigman

Last edited by Mike Sigman : 11-29-2006 at 08:09 PM.
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