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Old 11-28-2006, 07:53 PM   #277
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
Re: Aikido: The learning of natural movement

David Orange wrote:
Well, Mark, they do seem to be talking about similar phenomena, but Mike constantly derides Dan, so he doesn't seem to think they're doing the same thing.
I simply object to bragging.... that's not "derision". Insofar as different approaches, etc., I've said that is common. Heck, look at Ushiro... what he does is not the same usage of kokyu that Ueshiba used. Why is this a hard concept to grasp?
Second, Mike has much more CMA background than he has aikido. And Akuzawa's background also seems to be more Chinese than aiki-oriented, so I'm still not sure that this isn't something that's being adopted from Chinese arts and applied to Japanese arts--not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think it's part of the original nature of the Japanese arts and so it's mistaken to say that "this" is what's missing from Japanese budo.
Really, this is an absurdity. Look at Ki and Qi... do you think these are 2 different things and that all the Japanese martial arts use different things called "ki" and all the Chinese martial arts use a number of things that are called "qi" arbitrarily? Start the chain of logic anywhere you want.... it's all the same complex subject. Ask someone like Abe or Inaba or whoever.... this idea that the Chinese qi things are different from the Japanese ki things, including "kokyu", is ludicrous except in a conversation where the level of understanding is very low.
Well, that's a couple of more points, Mark. Please note that Ikeda sensei said "power through kokyu." To me, this reinforces what I have said--that kokyu, itself, is NOT power and certainly not an "issued" power. You achieve power "through" kokyu, which is to say through integrating mind and body via the breath.
So that effectively dismisses the term "kokyu ryoku" if you're correct, eh? And incidentally, "Kokyu" uses "breath", but not in the way a lot of people think. I've said that before. However, the *essence* of kokyu strength is jin. This is pretty straightforward and would make a great bet, if someone wants to bet on or against the obvious.
(snip more "me and Mochizuki" stuff)Also, please note that Ushiro Sensei spoke explicitly of "ki" as a matter of intent, and that its most important function is mind-to-mind, before any contact is made. If this were a physical thing, developed from the fascia or alignment of ground paths, how could it affect people at a distance with no contact? (snip) So ki is not primarily a product of mechanical alignment of the body but of involvement with life and traditional arts are very good for developing it.
Actually, I see where some of your errors are creeping in. "Ki" can really be several things, but I've explained that a number of times before. There is Ki that would be more or less the fascia stuff. There is ki that would be the mental manipulation of forces (that's the 'jin'). There is Ki that is "pressure" or "air pressure". But they're taken as a wholistic "ki" thing and the parts are more or less inextricable when you look at the whole. For instance, the pressure/fascia/jin things are all part of the complete "kokyu" term.... but the essence is still the jin, or at least it's the most tangible part of the whole force/skill. And 'jin' is considered to be "the physical manifestation of ki" and it involves this mental manipulation of forces; i.e., the "intent", the "yi".

What you need is for someone to lead you through the whole of it and you'll suddenly see it, David. It's fairly obvious when it's shown to you.

Mike Sigman
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