Thread: Gokyo-why?
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Old 10-24-2006, 12:19 AM   #49
Peter Goldsbury
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Dojo: Hiroshima Kokusai Dojo
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Re: Gokyo-why?

Rupert Atkinson wrote:
Hi Peter,

I didn't know that fact about Kaiten-nage, but I can tell you that in 1989 my Yoshinkan teacher in Japan - a direct student of Shioda Sensei - told me there was no Kaiten-nage in Yoshinkan. I have since seen Yoshinkan people doing it ...

5-kyou: Consider this. Right handed attack comes. Avoid left and place your left hand on uke's wrist and you are setting up for kote-gaeshi. Avoid right and place your right hand on uke's wrist in the same way (mirror) and you are setting up for 5-kyou (amongst other thngs, of course). It is a mirror technique. If you remove 5-kyou it would be like taking away one side of a mirror. Does that answer "Gokyo-Why?" I wonder?

Also, your description of 6-kyou is Judo's wake-gatamte. I learned it in Tomiki, in the Institute of Aikido, in Kyushin-do, in Jujutsu, and in Judo. Everyone has it but Aikikai, although some do, calling it different names (rarely wake-gatame).
Hello Rupert,

I have never had a problem with the reason for 5-kyou, though you would be surprised at how many test candidates cannot tell the difference between 5-kyou and 1-kyou. I think that 5-kyou, like 1-kyou, is still fundamentally an elbow pin.

What interests me is the way that Kisshomaru Ueshiba distilled the wealth of waza in Budo Renshu (1933) and Budo (1938) into the kihon waza of his 1957 volume. If you look at this volume and also the books published by Koichi Tohei, you will see the evidence of the creation of a system based, not on how people attack, which was the main organizing theme of Budo Resnhu, but on the waza themselves.

I think that Kisshomaru had already decided that it would be impossible for people to replicate or duplicate the training process that he himself had gone through at the hands of his father and so he produced what he thought was the core. Saito Morihiro also did this with his Traditional Aikido volumes, but on a more ambitious scale, as did Shirata Rinjiro with a video that has never been published officially. Of course, neither has the original Japanese text of Budo.

So, I think that 5-kyou and 6-kyou and, to a lesser extent kaiten-nage, were not thought of as really core waza, at least initially.

P A Goldsbury
Kokusai Dojo,
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