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Old 10-23-2006, 04:54 PM   #20
Erick Mead
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Dojo: Big Green Drum (W. Florida Aikikai)
Location: West Florida
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,568
Re: Takemusu Aiki in Systematic Teaching?

Larry Camejo wrote:
I agree totally that there is a complex order found in chaos, it's called rhythm and the study of randori (not just doing randori or jiyu waza by rote repetition but truly understanding what the concept means, studying it, reverse engineering it and developing its various elements) assists one in discerning the elements of that rhythm and understand how to control and master it. If one has the right teacher who points out the areas that need to be focussed on then the student learns how to detect the rhythm (sensitivity) of the self, the attacks and the attackers and become part of it (meeting/blending/harmonizing), creating the opportunity to ultimately change the rhythm to one that suits Tori/Nage (resolution).
I fundamentally think this is an irreconcilable debate, because the key distinciton have to do with types of comprehension and learning, that are deeepseated elements of personality. To carry the musical image further, it is like learning to music by reading it and playing, or by hearing it and playing. Good music can be had both ways, but not all musicians are equally equipped to learn in either mode as efficiently the other. And there is a distinctive difference in the resulting music even within in the same basic tradition (and even, in the same exact song).

For the record, I play and sing by ear. You?
Larry Camejo wrote:
Well I think that at least one of M. Ueshiba's foremost students would not agree with the above.
I'll see your shihan and raise you two ... -- No, really. I think this discussion is fascinating because it is a fundamentally divergent beginning -- that can ultimately lead to a similar place.
Larry Camejo wrote:
The Kata/Randori paradigm of training has been repeatedly proven to produce participants who are capable of adapting extremely well in chaos and manifesting spontaneous technique.
I do not doubt the power of system to transmit knowledge consistently intact, but streamlining also is not without a price in leaving certain areas of the body of knowledge routinely unexplored. Takamura Sensei wisely comments on the opposing deficits that can flow from each approach.
Larry Camejo wrote:
This is achieved via a deep study of kata and its fundamental elements and the gradual transition towards fully chaotic randori by the use of intermediate methods (referred to as kakari geiko and hiki tate geiko) that bridge the gap between total order and total chaos.
There is a reason that war and music have always been closely allied.

I am reminded of a comment by Alaisdair Fraser, a Scots fiddle player, (I think it was on the radio show "Thistle and Shamrock").

He first played a version of a tune that had been handed down through the best of the Scots fiddleplayers, from in the eighteenth century. It was a lovely, liltting orchestral-sounding reel, composed in the system of tonal harmony that was invented in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

Then he played the same tune as it had been handed down through the Scotch-Irish Appalachian oral tradition. I beleive it was "Leather Breeches."

He commented on its characteristically wild, freely chromatic and atonal "dissonant harmonies unknown to civilized hearing" that "hadnae yet been rendered safe."


Erick Mead
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