Dojo: Shudokan School of Aikido
Join Date: Jun 2001
Re: Mixing Aikido with other martial arts
Sorry Don, but things didn't work out for you on your post. I hate to tell you this but you just missed reaffirming all my posts. I'll give you a 95% but I can't give you the other 5 points if you made a factual mistake.
"Maybe I could learn bjj once a week or once every other week with my karate 3 times a week."
You'll have to include Aikido in this schedule because that was what I was referencing. I have no problem with mixing karate and BJJ. Also, I don't know that BJJ is so easy, that you can gain proficiency working at it once every other week either. That's only two times a month! I have to give BJJ a little more credit than that. There are some full time BJJ posters on this thread. Is your art that easy guys?
"All the more reason to cross train, who is to say you don't suck at aikido. Maybe you spend 10 years in aikido and find out you can't really use any of it. But seriously, I was kidding there. Its not about not being able to gain skill, its about dedication. If you friend has done bjj for years and can't handle people on the ground, he probably hasn't dedicated any time to it. What would you tell someone who has done aikido for years and still sucks at it?"
Now Don, nothing personal but when I read this, I had to go to your profile to check your age because your thinking was nonsensical here. Sometimes a younger person will make mistakes like this. This is my point you just made! What if you're no good at Aikido. Everyone has acknowledged this art takes a long time. For sure if your going to add aikido to something, you would have to give the more difficult art more time. In the case of someone that isn't good at Aikido (and I have seen people like that), they would lose that aspect of their self defense and the time mixing the arts, at least from the Aikido perspective would be wasted. Then to top it off, we would have even less assurance the individual would be any good at the other arts!
You also said it was all about dedication, not being able to gain skill. I'm not sure this made sense or is a factual statement. My friend was extremely dedicated but as in many situations, couldn't beat some of the people.
"Insecurity? I'm not insecure in the least. Although I don't train martial arts for self defense. I train them for self betterment.(is that a word?). For my sport, I have to be able to strike, throw and grapple. If I didn't train in any of those areas I would not be able to compete in my sport. I really don't think you need 4 arts for self defense. For self defense you need to be familiar with striking, clinching/throwing, and ground work. And most importantly you need to be comfortable with aggression and in good physical shape. If you get out of breath walking up a small flight of stairs, your chances of surviving an encounter with a mugger are slim. If you have never been punched in the face before, your chances of keeping your cool when it happens are also slim"
This makes all my points and contradicts nothing I have said. Thanks
"This is why I don't feel aikido is good for people who's main concern is self defense. If you are worried about self defense, you should be worried about it now. Not 15 years from now. You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months. It takes years to have an resemblance of skill in aikido."
Again, you have made all my points. Thanks
I would say though that I don't agree with this, " You can be good enough in bjj, boxing, judo, etc in a few months."
I hope the legions of boxers, bjj and especially Judo practitioners rise up and defend their arts! A few months!!!! Please, tell me you are joking! My father in law was a professional boxer and I have a friend who was world class boxer who fought for two world championships and they would beg to differ. I also have two judo practitioners in my dojo. I'll ask them if a few months will do the trick. As a matter of fact, I have some grapplers in my Victoria, Texas dojo, I'll ask them about the few months it takes. Sorry but I don't think so about the "few months".
Don you wrote,
"I am a kyu rank. Of course I don't claim you can't use aikido for self defense. I just claim its not the best course (mainly because of its training methods and time requires to gain skill)."
"I personally don't care for philosophy. I read it, study it, and make up my own mind. But I really feel that at high levels of any arts all the roads lead to the same place."
I made the first comment about the Aikido rank of those who comment because on a thread like this, your comments carry less weight if you haven't been in the art long enough to know what you're talking about. I am afraid on a board like this one, that is the case much of the time and the other new readers and young Aikidoists don't realize who is commenting. This is a free country and the Board was made for all who respect each other but that doesn't change the fact that in a perfect world, the only people making pronouncements and giving advise on an art should be those who have earned the right to do so by years and years of hard practice. That should be a minimum standard because everyone else have the ability to muddy up the water with statements they can't back up. Please understand though that everyone has the right to comment but that doesn't mean we all should every time.
As for the philosophy, in every art, it is the philosophy that gives meaning to the method of training. To learn Wing Chun or any art with no regard to it's philosophical base, whatever it is, says a lot about the mindset of that person. To say that all roads lead to Rome is too simplistic because if that was the case, then there would be nothing to discuss.
Your last comment was
"I personally think the reason Ueshiba did not include striking and ground work is that his students were accomplished martial artists. He was refining their techniques and showing them a better path. He did not need to teach them how to punch/kick/choke someone on the ground. The problem today is that most aikido students seem to have no real background in martial arts. They jump right into aikido and are not taught the 'basics' of unarmed fighting. And then their instructor will tell them to throw some atemi in. Would it not be proper to teach proper atemi if you are going to advocate it to your students? Ueshiba was also trained on the ground (there are photo's on the web with him doing ground work). Who is to say he didn't' agree with it, but simply didn't' teach it because his students were already good enough on the ground, and aikido is not about teaching someone to fight?"
Some of your statements here aren't factual and deal with conjecture so I won't comment here. I think this speaks for itself.
Good try Don. I think we agree in the main. Again, all I am saying is that it doesn't make sense when some one writes in about learning self defense quick to glibly add Aikido to BJJ, Karate,and Wing Chun as if though that was attainable for self defense. In my mind, it also makes a huge difference that Aikido wasn't made to be a mixed martial art and that kind of thinking will eventually dilute this art to nothing. It concerns me that the very goal of the Founder will be countermanded by this kind of thinking and the whole reason he created Aikido will be lost in a sea of people in pursuit of a form of personal invincibility that doesn't exist. That was his revelation. That no matter how many techniques you know, no matter how strong you are, no matter how proficient you become at fighting, eventually, you will be defeated. There had to be another way. Aikido was his answer to that problem and at least for him, it led him to another level of thinking and understanding. He understood that if he could get others to see this, that the world would be changed. I hate to see that lost to the lowest part of what we are as humans. Maybe that will happen but I had to say something while I wait for the next thread by someone starting Aikido that needs some quick self defense and the legion of posters who will start showing us why they are doing martial arts.
If anyone finds that perfect, all range, super fighting self defense dojo, I have a feeling they won't like it at all because the people in there will just suck all the oxygen and life out of that place. Your dojo mates will be the most testoserone filled, ego driven people on earth. If you are really a good and sincere person, you will hate that place. The martial arts world is full of dojos like that. Drive by and look at the sign. It says Aikido, Judo, Kung Fu, BJJ, etc., etc. and all the arts are taught by the same person and all the students are learning all the arts.
I can't tell you how many people from those dojos I have met. They are jack of all trades and master of none. They are self centered in the main and want to learn Aikido for all the wrong reasons. I always tell seekers who aren't sure of what art they want. Go to any dojo and look at the sign. If it has listed more than one art, go in there and make sure all the arts are taught by one person each that are dedicated to that art. If all the arts are taught by one person period, then you should go somewhere else because it is highly probable that person won't represent any of the arts properly and what you learn will be severely watered down.
I've said my peace. I'm out of this one and will try to refrain in the future for the patient readers out there who aren't posting who know what I'm talking about. My apologies if I represented you poorly.