View Single Post
Old 03-01-2006, 11:08 PM   #21
Dojo: Aunkai, Tokyo
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 591
Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Shaun Ravens wrote:
makeup of "F" being comprised of a physical and a non-physical component.
Well, there is a "non-physical" component, but it goes hand in hand with the specific physical skill that's developed. There's a reason that Ueshiba and others used the analogies they did when discussing these things.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Well, as I said, this too is very simplistic at best. However, I am sure it is relatively representative of your current approach.
Actually it isn't. The equation is more a result of the training, not the intent. Might sound small but actually it makes a huge difference

Shaun Ravens wrote:
were true, then each and every one of us would be mere equals should all other things related to size, muscle mass, training, height, and what have you be equal.
Well, actually even Sagawa was quoted as saying that all things being equal in terms of body skill, who was more likely to "win" in a match would boil down to bodymass, experience etc.
Maybe it is, just that simple...and exactly why he didn't want to give his stuff away to "foreigners" since he knew they'd have an inherent advantage.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
You must surely admit that such thinking is fantasy and that there is no evidence for that whatsoever. More to the point, there is quite a bit of evidence in the form of particular teachers and masters who somehow manifest much greater skills and power than those with whom they train. So once again, I will posit that there must be a non-physical component that is at play.
Uh... ok, it just means that they gained greater control, and were able to intuitively understand how to control those components better than their cohorts. I see it happening on a smaller scale even at the place where I train. Basically they used their brain more than the person next to them.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
lines of what you outline with your formula. Do you think that there is not some construction worker, or street corner thug who, without any training whatsoever would not look at you strangely as you hit him will all your alignment paradigm power expecting him to fly backwards and up... just before he clocks you on the top of your
head and takes your cell phone, wallet and girlfriend for a spin in your new Lexus? Of course this person exists. What he has
Just a personal opinoin, I don't get your comparison...
Of course things are possible. I never said that internal skill is the uB3r. But it can significantly enhance someone's natural abilities.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
developed is just this non-physical component of which I speak. Do you care to speak to that? How about your teacher? Does he speak of it, and if so, what does he say about it?
Actually I think you're way off track on your "non-physical component" thinking... all you're describing is pure physical talent. Nothing more nothing less.
As for the "non physical component" I referred to earlier, yes he does talk about it, and it's a direct result of the training.
Moving the body conditions the mind.
"Imashime" and all that jive. In fact for the higher levels to work, you need to engage that "flip" in thinking. But it's not some kind of abstract notion that you alude to.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
1. Where exactly in the body is the tanden (dantien)
2. What is its function?
3. How does it function?
4. I think I have damaged mine. Do you know a good doctor who might remove it for me? I will pay him quite well for a replacement, if he can get his hands on one from someone who doesn't practice martial arts, and therefore doesn't need his (or hers, if they are interchangeable, that is).
1. Hard to say, can't peer "inside" me, but there is a definite push/pull rotation that occurs under the diaphram area, that can also be controlled.

2. It's just another link in the chain. Personally I think people have too much of a fetish with moving from the center and neglect other more important parts of the body. The head, base of the neck, spine, and arch in the legs that prop the body up being the main ones. Tanden means jack if you don't understand how those work together properly.

3. Tanden is just another link in the chain for me, basically power passes from the legs through it, and moving it can direct the vectors by which it's transmited from the spine out to the extremities. Easier to show by hand than words though...I don't expect anyone to just buy this upfront.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Agreed. However, what is the overall control mechanism which unites all of these individual aspects of the whole? Can this overlord of a mechanism be trained, and if so, how does one train it?
Most important part that I think people neglect is the spine, and understanding its function in the human body. And yes this overall mechanism can be trained. What do you think all the different versions of Chi Kung, Suburi etc are done for ?
Granted you have to do them properly otherwise it just turns into another form of aerobic exercise.
If you do any of those exercises properly you should get tangible results within a short time. The fact that people get intangible results for the most part, just points to the low level of instruction that's generally out there, if you ask me.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
As to the first part, again, agreed. As for who knows it, I posit that you can really know, can you? I have met many people on the mat. Many times I let them grab my wrist and I simply writhe around pretending to know nothing at all - all the while making an attempt to "do" something when in fact I am doing nothing at all.
Actually when I roll with BJJ people I don't even do anything like that at all. Several of them come up to me on their own, and ask me what I did, since I felt "weird" to them, or in extreme cases, where I pick up a 200lb guy with my arm (I only weigh about 150lb) while he's trying to execute a full blown arm bar on me with position and slam him back down on the matt.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
their eyes and hear with their ears? You see, not everyone has two arms or two legs. And of course, we each use what is between our ears quite differently. I am sure you would agree. In fact, while most people listen with there ears, some do so with their eyes, some with their heart, and yet still some others who try to listen with their minds hear nothing at all. Where do you fall with regards to that? How do you think that relates to training in a Budo, rather than a mere self-defense system? Does it even relate?
If you ask me...way off topic. I'm just addressing the topic of "ki" which the guy was talking about.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
Oh, one other thing. I keep hearing this and that about alignment, and the posture, and ground paths and what have you. I am wondering if this were all true, using your ground path paradigm how would someone without a path to the ground manifest high levels of Kokyu and separately achieve Aiki if they were to be facing an opponent let's say in a weightless environment? Would this even
Dunno, let's send Chen Xiao Wang to space and have someone recieve one of his strikes, lol. A lot of this stuff works because we have gravity working on us

Shaun Ravens wrote:

be possible given your current paradigm? As another example, say
But, I think a massive amount of power can still be generated, maybe not as much though. You'd have to really work the spine in order to get the max amount of power.

Shaun Ravens wrote:
five people held your teacher up against the wall with his feet off the floor, one each by his two legs, two arms and lastly by his torso...
Ok, but now you have gravity working again.
Plus since there's a contact point (the people holding the person up), you now have a ground path. Ground path doesn NOT have to start from the feet. It's whatever is directly, or indirectly touching the ground. The ground -> feet -> extremeties explanation is generally given because we're standing.
I can do some weird stuff (from the perspective of some the grapplers I roll with) even with just my back touching the floor.

Shaun Ravens wrote:

how would he handle that with one manifestation of Ki, Kokyu, Chi, Pranayama, Jin ...etc.? Would he take a different approach if he were lying down on his back, on the floor, with one student each sitting on each limb and one on his torso? I would be exited to hear
his answer with regards to both of these scenarios. Of course, you
It's already been discussed before, and yea its been filmed. The result doesn't "look" impressive and needs to be felt really.
If you filmed me doing it, all you'd see is someone going from being mounted, to suddenly reversing the mount by flipping the other person over, but "sticking" to him at the same time.

Besides which Takeda Soukaku did this trick reportedly when his left side was completely paralyzed. Had several students of his hold his small frame down, and then proceeded to throw them all over the place. Actually it was this incident that supposedly tipped Sagawa off as to what was "key" in the human body in making this stuff work.

Shawn, I'm not trying to say that the other component you talk about isn't important. In fact in order to grasp these physical skills you need a very flexible mind, since it goes counter to almost everything most people "know" about their bodies.
But, unless you get and develop these concrete physical skills, you can't even begin to delve into the "non physical" part of it.

Let me wrap up with several quotes from Sagawa
By the way, I know I quote this guy a lot, but I'm not a DRAJJ nutrider, just to be clear. I just happen to like the quotes the old man made, and think they're clear, and cut to the chase as to what's generally missing in everyone's pursuit for the "higher" levels.

a) This isn't Ki. It's all based in physics and human phsyiology.

b) The reason none of you can reach my level is because
1) you dont train engouh
2) you dont desire enough
3) you dont use your goddamn heads enough
4) tanren (solo exercise) is the key, you must build up the body in a certain way if you want any chance in developing "aiki".


Last edited by Upyu : 03-01-2006 at 11:19 PM.
  Reply With Quote