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Old 03-01-2006, 03:39 PM   #18
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 498
Re: Desperate to rehabilitate ki

Mr. John,
Thank you for your comments. My post was designed more to raise some questions for the threads author as opposed to trying to really state anything definitively. In any case, please let me address some of the points you have raised with your post.
Robert John wrote:
Just a couple of thoughts.

The MA=F equations so often spouted is a little bit more complex than it seems.

If you get into the "internal" factor then what "m" really constitutes needs to be more closely examined(If you ask me, most boxers that try to throw all their weight behind punch or kick aren't actually using their structure to maximum efficiency, and hence their weight).
Actually it is quite a bit more complex than even you mention, below. However, I think this is what separates what I am doing from what you are doing, from what she is doing, from what they are doing. Point being and I am sure you would agree that while you may take route 45 North to the park, and I might take route 10 South to the park, and while we both end up in the same place, and both via bicycle, since North is uphill and South is downhill, you peddled very hard, while I coasted the entire way there. An observer knowing much about bicycles might boast knowing that we both traveled in the same manner, while perhaps no the same route. I would disagree completely, as I believe the two not to be the same at all, and as a matter of fact, quite different indeed. Yes, it could be said that this is only a physical difference in terms of mechanical efficiency. Again, I would disagree, but partially. I was hoping that you would have commented on something else I posited in my previous post, that being the portion related to the makeup of "F" being comprised of a physical and a non-physical component. So far on these boards I have read and been told all sorts of things telling me how Ki, Kokyu, Chi, Pranayama, Jin ...etc. are all the same things. I am told that they are all mechanically based and derived. However, common sense tells me otherwise. For if that were true, then each and every one of us would be mere equals should all other things related to size, muscle mass, training, height, and what have you be equal.

You must surely admit that such thinking is fantasy and that there is no evidence for that whatsoever. More to the point, there is quite a bit of evidence in the form of particular teachers and masters who somehow manifest much greater skills and power than those with whom they train. So once again, I will posit that there must be a non-physical component that is at play.

To speak plainly, I do not call that "Ki." I also do not think it to be mystical in any terms. I do believe that the training of this non-physical component is key to moving one's abilities into what we all see as "superhuman" at some level. As an example, take someone with a high level of CMA/JMA/Aiki (or whatever) training who is well known to exhibit a very solid release of explosive power along the lines of what you outline with your formula. Do you think that there is not some construction worker, or street corner thug who, without any training whatsoever would not look at you strangely as you hit him will all your alignment paradigm power expecting him to fly backwards and up... just before he clocks you on the top of your head and takes your cell phone, wallet and girlfriend for a spin in your new Lexus? Of course this person exists. What he has developed is just this non-physical component of which I speak. Do you care to speak to that? How about your teacher? Does he speak of it, and if so, what does he say about it?
Robert John wrote:
Also, "a" needs to be examined to. There's a bunch of things that drive "a" within the human body.

If you want to get really technical the break down would look like

m1a1 (Mass/acceleration of tanden) + m2a2 (mass/acceleration of compression/expansion of spine) + m3a3(mass/acceleration of backbow in the case of taichi) + m4a4 (mass/acceleration of all joints held together with 6 directional contradictory force) .... and so on = F
Well, as I said, this too is very simplistic at best. However, I am sure it is relatively representative of your current approach. However, again there is something missing for me, and it is a glaring vacancy when it comes to O-Sensei's approach. Might you like to comment about that? Oh, lastly with regards to this section;

1. Where exactly in the body is the tanden (dantien)
2. What is its function?
3. How does it function?
4. I think I have damaged mine. Do you know a good doctor who might remove it for me…? I will pay him quite well for a replacement, if he can get his hands on one from someone who doesn't practice martial arts, and therefore doesn't need his (or hers, if they are interchangeable, that is).

Robert John wrote:
If you don't have control over any of these factors, you take away from the overall equation and end up with less power, less efficiency.
Agreed. However, what is the overall control mechanism which unites all of these individual aspects of the whole? Can this overlord of a mechanism be trained, and if so, how does one train it?
Robert John wrote:
If you ask me, most of the exercises designed to develop this kind of body skill is already in Aikido, just few actually know how to do the exercises to develop them (Just a personal opinoin, don't flame me)
As to the first part, again, agreed. As for who knows it, I posit that you can really know, can you? I have met many people on the mat. Many times I let them grab my wrist and I simply writhe around pretending to know nothing at all - all the while making an attempt to "do" something when in fact I am doing nothing at all. Sometimes, when I really need a laugh, I ask, "Do you feel it?" I just love it when they say "Yes" My point is, just because you show up asking to see it, or feel it, and even if you get to see someone do something, or say something, or even get to feel someone do something, doesn't really mean they actually showed you anything. I spent more than a decade seeking from one teacher and was show quite a lot more than some who had been at the dojo for two or three times as long as me. I thought i knew something. In fact, the teacher never threw me even once. It was not until I was thrown with some force that I finally understood how little I had been shown, and how much less I knew than there was to learn from this person. Of course, I had been saying, "Yeah, I feel it" too, for all those years, so I guess karmicly speaking the universe got even with me.
Robert John wrote:
Yea, but to a large degree the foundation that's developed is the same(considering that the source is probably the same anyways). How you use that foundation might be a bit different, but we only have two arms, two legs and a head, so there's only going to be so many variations of the use of internal mechanics.
Yeah, I know - its all the same. I keep hearing that from a few here on the internet who in the very next sentence say things like, I thought I knew how deep these things ran in Aikido, but then with all this new information I have dug up on the internet, I realized that I couldn't have been more wrong. So are they only wrong some of the time, only when it relates to what they knew yesterday, or is it more likely that they were cursed with only being able to see with their eyes and hear with their ears? You see, not everyone has two arms or two legs. And of course, we each use what is between our ears quite differently. I am sure you would agree. In fact, while most people listen with there ears, some do so with their eyes, some with their heart, and yet still some others who try to listen with their minds hear nothing at all. Where do you fall with regards to that? How do you think that relates to training in a Budo, rather than a mere self-defense system? Does it even relate?

Oh, one other thing. I keep hearing this and that about alignment, and the posture, and ground paths and what have you. I am wondering if this were all true, using your ground path paradigm how would someone without a path to the ground manifest high levels of Kokyu and separately achieve Aiki if they were to be facing an opponent let's say in a weightless environment? Would this even be possible given your current paradigm? As another example, say five people held your teacher up against the wall with his feet off the floor, one each by his two legs, two arms and lastly by his torso... how would he handle that with one manifestation of Ki, Kokyu, Chi, Pranayama, Jin ...etc.? Would he take a different approach if he were lying down on his back, on the floor, with one student each sitting on each limb and one on his torso? I would be exited to hear his answer with regards to both of these scenarios. Of course, you could simply film the demonstration and post a link to the video. He can then make his approach known via his personal narration.

Robert John wrote:
If you want to see grownups discussing this and flaming each other, head over to e-budo
There's several threads on the stuff under
"Kuzushi", "Aikido from babies" "Akuzawa" etc etc

Just my two yen
Yeah, I took some time to read through it and there really wasn't anything there worth commenting on. See, when there is no flexibility of mind present, it really doesn't matter what else there is, it just isn't for me. The mere fact that someone considers completely different things to be the same shows me that they have a very simplistic view of things -- things that I find to be more detailed. See, if I go to my doctor and say, "Doc, I got this here problem, I got a pain in my…" and he answers back, "Well, all pain is basically the same, so take this here pill once a day and you should be fine…" I know he aint the Doctor for me. And from my experience, these days that is pretty much the way most doctors treat most patients. And worse, still is the fact that most patients really would prefer to take a pill a day for the rest of their life rather than change how they approach medicine. I am in the other camp. To me simpletons do not make good doctors, and while they may make great fighters, they make for what I consider to be everything bad about martial arts. Moreover, they are not even on the path of martial arts, nor towards mastery of anything at all. I tend to lose interest when I hear someone argue a point that sounds something like, "Prove to me that Apples and Tomatoes are different! See they are all the same, grown from the earth and a gift from God to his children…" and to me that is pretty much mostly what I unfortunately took a long time over there to read. I just don't even have to justify such nonsense with an answer. After all, they aren't listening anyway.


I no longer participate in or read the discussion forums here on AikiWeb due to the unfair and uneven treatment of people by the owner/administrator.
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