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Old 02-21-2006, 07:41 PM   #74
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Re: Regrading grabs in Aikido...

Meynard Ancheta wrote:
First part...

Because it was part of the curriculum. The problem with following a curriculum with no understanding the real context as to why certain techniques had to be there is the tendency for actual practical technique to become stylized.

Stylized technique become empty forms. Much of the repertoire in most traditional martial arts have stylized or idealized technique. It's in the curriculum so it's practiced without complete understanding of the purpose, over time the meaning is lost. I'm sure Osensei understood the purpose, I'm just not sure it was imparted.

So are you saying that Osensei understood that kata-dori was a move away from practical training, that it was a stylized, empty form but that he did it anyways because it was part of the curriculum? If you aren't saying that, can you tell me how you are saying something different?

Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Second part...

Because a sword stabbing move is not like a boxer's punch. If you understood weapon based fighting you wouldn't have to ask this question.
Why - that's twice in this thread - and I'm still waiting for some video of Chris' real Aikido so I can contrast it with my fake intellectually masturbating Aikido. How about you, got some video of your weapons work so that I can contrast it with my ignorant weapons work?

Meynard Ancheta wrote:
Holding a long weapon with an end grip like a sword doesn't make for efficient stabs. However it makes for an efficient slash. Holding a long weapon from the middle or 3/4 grip like a staff makes for an efficient thrust, but not necessarily for efficient slashes.

Take the sword and hold it in one hand (right) and take a knife and hold it in the other (left) makes for an efficient slash and thrust movement with both weapons.

Boxers don't fight by holding their fist on top of each other as if they're holding a sword. Do you make a two grip yokomen strike? No. Do you make a two grip shomen uchi strike? No.

You need to understand the nature of the weapon.
My question was not centered on current boxing methods. My question was concerned with the way folks punched back when these arts opted to train for a tsuki without a sword in hand. I don't care how different it was from boxing of today, that punching style was certainly not like a how you stab with a sword/blade, etc. So the question remains, if these arts were about weapons, and if these arts find their practicality in scenario-based training (which is your view - not mine) why was the sword taken out of the hand? Or, why when the sword was taken out of the hand did these arts not develop a more "realistic" (i.e. scenario appropriate) punch to deal with.

My answer to this solves this issue (i.e. aikido training is principle-based, not scenario-based) - yours does not. You are either going to end up with an artistic revolution occurring way before Osensei - making him practice stylized empty techniques for the sake of curriculum (as you did above) - or you are going to have to say that folks did in fact punch like this (i.e. mune tsuki) - which was hardly true. You can't say that no artistic revolution occurred prior to Osensei at the same time that you are saying empty-hand mune-tsuki is scenario-based training with a sword.

David M. Valadez
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