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Old 08-25-2005, 07:38 AM   #63
Ron Tisdale
Dojo: Doshinkan dojo in Roxborough, Pa
Location: Phila. Pa
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 4,614
Re: quickness & accuracy

Larry Camejo wrote:
Hi Ron,
Hi Larry, Of course I do understand the difference between kata and free sparring/free play...but lets look at some of the areas you mention. Others should feel free to chime in here, especially if I mention something I've seen that they do:

So I guess there is kata training where one's partner utilises unknown, unplanned, targeted continuous attacks, constantly fakes, jabs [
I would generally say no here. What I have seen (and to some extent experienced) is a teacher putting pressure on a student by taking a kata where they know the basic movements, putting them in a pressure situation (like a public demo), and then inspite of the fact that it is a kata, attacking them with a full commitment to the engagement.

...and deliberately tries to destroy his partner's ma ai by sudden changes, utilises muscular or positional resistance and other pressure methods to place his partner in a place where his mind/body movement, toitsu ryoku and kokyu ryoku (not his waza)
are truly tested or otherwise enticed to fail, thereby helping him to improve.
Yes, this I have seen and experienced to some extent. Just because you are performing kata doesn't mean that an experienced person can't change the timing, commitment, angle, distance of an attack, amount of muscular resistance. I have seen koryu members do this in the first aiki expo, as an example. Ellis attacked his student with so much power his partner's composite bokken (those very rarely fail, its the *only* time I've seen it happen) snapped. He called out "kodachi" and switched the kata to short sword vs long sword. His partner responded fluidly...I saw no gap in intent. I can tell you right now *I* would have failed that test.

Would be interesting to see this sort of kata practice imo.
Try making some of the aiki expos, or certain koryu demonstrations.

We tend to refer to kata practice as the cooperative, choreographed practice of technical form, whereas the above stuff I mentioned falls into either drills that are not specifically technique-oriented, but designed to train certain fundamentals that can be applied to technique; or randori practice.
Well, bully for y'all!

I always thought the Hiriki no Yosei practice of Yoshinkan (we have a similar counterpart) was a drill to train movement fundamentals and focus of power, breathing and relaxation, not kata (actual techniques and forms) practice per se.
Absolutely correct, Hiriki no Yosei (elbow power) is not a kata. It is a basic movement. Why would you think that I thought of it as kata?

I guess one learns something new every day.
Well, maybe today will be one of those days When I refer to kata in the yoshinkan, I'm refering to things like the 150 basic techniques, performed with a partner, united basic movements and related technique, things like that. The movements are set...shite and uke know basically what's coming. What they don't necessarily know is what the power, speed, exact distances, timing, of the attacks will be. All of these things can and often are varied. All I am saying is that there are many ways to change the nature of the kata to make it more alive. And I've never seen it (in the yoshinkan) approach the nature of what I saw Ellis and his partner do. Which is why I told Jean that I didn't believe kata was what was needed in the situation discussed. Waza, on the other hand, probably would have helped, in my opinion. As would randori, obviously.


Ron Tisdale
"The higher a monkey climbs, the more you see of his behind."
St. Bonaventure (ca. 1221-1274)
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