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Old 08-01-2005, 05:21 PM   #38
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Re: Does Budo require a sense of shame?

Great reply Camilla, I will do the same in regards to your last post. There's a lot there. It makes a lot of sense and I agree with much of it.

Rob,

I wonder if that kind of shame is not something else. I wonder if that kind of shame is not something more related to an excess - and in that sense, like an over-reaching pride, also equally prone to delusion (i.e. a lack of clarity concerning what is). I am tempted to make a distinction between "good shame" and "bad shame" or a distinction between accepting what is/clarity and excess/delusion, but I'd rather not because I think what we are really after is more akin to what Camilla is saying in regards to her role as mother. And I do not think that what Camilla is getting at can be covered between two opposed ideas and/or some Utopian middle that is supposed to exist between the two.

I think what is going on when we are dealing with shame is a matter of investment, but in that sense we are forced to talk about investing in the right things, with the right things, and in the right way. If you can do that, you can experience shame, in my opinion, without an opening for abuse, without any notion that great amounts of shame can only lead to depression or a loss of self-worth. In short, I suspect that what is really going on in these other cases (i.e. the shame/abuse cycle) is really an excess of pride and/or an excess of concern regarding things more material and/or superficial (i.e. investing in the wrong things, with the wrong things, in the wrong way). And thus, we can also say we are looking at a lack of tools for properly penetrating the body/mind and all of its workings (something else Camilla suggested) when we are seeing folks come to dojo to continue their abusive cycles and/or their habitual tendencies to suffer abuse.

Alas, I should say, it is everyone's involvement that is making this thread great/interesting - not me. I did nothing worth mentioning. With that, again, I thank you all.

dmv

David M. Valadez
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