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Old 07-19-2005, 05:57 AM   #138
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 26
Re: BS in fellow aikidoka

Brett Charvat wrote:
--I hope I'm not the only one who feels that Paige's uke doesn't need any adjusting whatsoever. He clamped down hard. Isn't that his job?
It depends. In our dojo we learn the technique step-by-step under sensei's instruction, then are left to practice it amongst ourselves while sensei and the assistant instructor observe and help where needed. During this training (please emphasise the word TRAINING), if you can't start the move, you can't learn it, even in step-by-step mode. Uke's job here, is in fact NOT to clamp down so hard that she cannot perform the technique. Aggressive application of the technique comes later.

Brett Charvat wrote:
I'm not sure where this idea about aikido being "cooperative" comes from. I've always been taught that uke's job is to attack in a prescribed manner, period. If Paige is unable to perform the specified technique, I would hardly lay the blame at her uke's feet. Struggling to perform a technique against a strong, large opponent is what studying aikido is all about, in my opinion. Aikido is not step aerobics. We're not trying to just mimic the movement that our sensei demonstrates over and over until it's time to stop.
I do basically agree with this, but there has to be a ramp up from learning the move step by step, then flowingly at a slow pace, then quickly, and finally with full "combat intent". if Uke is uncooperative from the beginning, the practice cannot ramp up.

Brett Charvat wrote:
Studying aikido is about learning why a technique works or doesn't work, and most of the time this learning takes place while NOT doing a technique; while trying and failing to do one. For the past three years I've lived and studied aikido in Japan, and both of the dojo I train at are chock full of large, strong ukes who never give less than 100% of themselves in their attacks. Most of the time, I try and fail to do techniques against them, just like they often try and fail to do techniques against my attacks when I'm the uke. Are we therefore unable to learn? I certainly don't think so.
I don't think you're unable to learn, but I think starting a new technique slowly and ramping up to a level and speed that could be called realistic or "combat intent" is a more proper way to train. Once the move is understood, then it's time to have Uke resist the move, as a person on the street would try to resist. It's not a matter of "we are here to train!", it's a matter of the methods of the training. We're all here to train.

Brett Charvat wrote:
Our high-level students and our instructors have very little trouble applying their techniques regardless of the size or strength of the uke, and I don't think they got to that level by training with cooperative ukes. I guess I'm confused why so many on this thread seem quick to want to adjust the uke because the tori (nage) was struggling and frustrated.
I bet they started out with cooperative Uke's during the move. I've found it very beneficial to go slowly at first, and feel how the move is affecting the melee, both as Shite and Uke. Understanding the basics of the feel of the move will allow you to define what aspects of the move are causing the leverage, pressure, etc, so when practiced under duress, you'll know the technique thoroughly.

Brett Charvat wrote:
Struggling and frustrated; isn't that what we all are while training?
For me it's Attentive, Determined, and Inquisitive.

All this being said, and to relate it to the original poster, she was practicing a move with a Death Grip Uke. If he was doing this in the training stages of the move, he's wrong. We are there to TRAIN, and LEARN. He was not allowing her to learn the indicated move by applying too much force.

If it was later in the training of the move, and they were practicing a more combat application of the move rather thqan a step-by-step introduction of the move, then he's right to do it, because that's just more realistic.

I realize I have countered a lot of points here, but I do inherently agree with you, I just think there is an introductory, or step-by-step stage that should come before practicing the move in a full "combat" manner.

Thank you for your time,
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