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Old 07-14-2005, 10:58 AM   #209
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
United_States
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Re: Highest Level Martial Arts and Aikido

Quote:
Not bad, Rob. And pure debate, too!
Hmm...the unfortunate implication here is that I must be some poor poster in general, but _you_ feel I'm improving. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that it was an inadvertent implication as opposed to a sneaky way to elevate yourself at my expense, my response is while I appreciate this approval, please be more careful because this is how those bickering matches you say you would like to avoid (to have pure debate) can start unintentionally...

If you want to try to further explain how kokyu really is and how different it is from normal movement or why you feel I'm thinking of one thing as general ki and kokyu movement and how you think I should be looking at it, I'm truly interested.

Quote:
Incidentally, Rob... can you name a few of these "so many" people you know who have reached a "profound" level? I'd like to meet a couple.
You got that from my writing "I see so many people attain some profound (_at least_ to them, but maybe very legitimate) level of understanding and then make the mistake of trying to start out all new students from that point." Well, while I think it would be in poor taste to mention the names of legitimate people who I believe failed their students; I can say that in general, I'll bet we all know many examples of people who make those conglomeration arts who are pretty good themselves but can't produce even one good student. As far as people who have reached a "profound" level - meaning _to me_ beyond normal strength (AND NOT in the context of people who failed their students), I would offer up Ralph Malerba sensei - a student of Gleason sensei. Ralph sensei had major problems with his shoulders (I think from a car accident) to the point he could not possibly do a push up, and he was throwing a professional football player all around the dojo with kokyunages. Given that I am certain that at least some parts of that cannot possibly be arm strength, I'd have to conclude that he was using power from somewhere else. Another example would be my sempai in Japan named Nishida san. He is a very under-ranked godan in Fukuoka. I would love for you to meet him. I'm positive he'd be more than happy to push hands with you, demonstrate his ability to perform any kokyu test you want - provided you ask with enthusiasm and humility. I asked him about the jo trick, and while he didn't hold a jo, he stuck out his arm to his side and resisted my pushing of his wrist from front to back and back to front pretty impressively. Anyway, I'm confident he has something beyond the mundane.

Lastly, I don't think I so much "just slipped some ideas in" as much as I was talking about "Highest Level Martial Arts and Aikido" in the "do" sensei as opposed to the jutsu sense. I understand that some would disagree with the polarity of the Don Draeger definitions and explain that the Japanese see the jutsu and the do as pretty much interchangeable - but I draw the confusion that this means that they understand it means both at the same time. I'm not sure this is so much a purely Westerner's opinion, but you have every right to disagree.

Rob
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