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Old 06-15-2005, 10:27 PM   #299
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
You can have knowledge in several different ways. You can have experiential knowledge without having the mental knowledge or understanding. You don't have to understand the physics of thermodynamics in order to know that boiling water is hot, for example. Your body can simply learn from the physical aspects of the art.
I don't think that's quite the same as the topic of ki. I don't think you can know what 'ki' is without understanding it.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Politics? possibly, but I contend that politics alone is not enough to sustain long term interest. The people studying the system would have to realize some benefit from the art. What possible benefit can you get out of a "watered" down/"gentrified" system?
Long term interest isn't the hard part, hence the success of mcdojos.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Look at the mission statement or philosophical intent the founders very clearly wrote. Gichin Funakoshi was very clear about why he created Karate, as well as Kano, and Uesheba. How can you really argue with what their intent of creating the system was?? May not be why you study it, but it is the intent behind the art.
The reason Funakoshi, Ueshiba, and Kano founded their own styles doesn't change the fact that they still taught fighting techniques. If Ueshiba wanted to make spread peace, why fighting techniques? Why have training methods where there is a winner and a loser? If he wanted to create peace, he should have taught dancing. Everyone would recieve the same benefit and be peaceful. There would be no competition within the dojo. Fighting itself is a competition, so teaching fighting techniques is promoting competition.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
About that time Saotome Sensei walks down the steps from the house into the dojo, so the 3rd Dan says, "lets ask sensei". After a few minutes of Sensei trying to define my "what if" he got in the corner against the wall and say "go ahead". I figured, hey this is a shihan, he should be able to hold his own so I did not hold back and proceed to come in with good jabs and body blows. It took about a split second for him to slip past me somehow and flatten my face against the wall. he is...what....about 4 11, maybe 140lbs??? he held me there while he explained to the 3rd Dan about the problems with paradigms and something about the wall being your friend and not the enemy. I was pretty humbled, and had a sore nose for a few days.
Fair enough, you have a reason to respect Saotome's ability. Many don't have a reason, yet they still treat these 'masters' like they are gods.

Lorien Lowe wrote:
You can have some understanding of something that you can't actually see by observing its effects indirectly; for example, scientists had some understanding of how atoms aggregated into molecules long before we had systems of actally picturing atoms or molecules.

Also, you can certianly use something without knowing what it is. We do it all the time in technological societies.
Maybe I should have explained my question better.

How can someone talk about all of the benefits that they have gained from ki, talk about 'extending ki', teach their students how to use ki, etc. and then turn around and say they don't have a clue what it is? Many people from a wide range of arts talk about ki/chi as proper mechanics and technique, and many others within those same arts talk about mystical energy that you can use to knock people out or heal them...

I think someone said this in that thread I linked to (about extending ki), but nearly everything that people claim they have seen/experienced but don't understand is attributed to ki. That ranges from good, effective techniques all the way to supposed no-touch KO's. 'Ki' seems to be a one-size-fits-all term to explain everything in Asian arts.

Re: Using 'Ki' as a metaphor...

In Tony Cecchine's catch wrestling dvd's, Mr Cecchine often tells the viewer to imagine lines going in different directions to explain how you should apply pressure during certain pins. Some might say that is 'extending ki', I just think it's a good way to make sure your technique is right.

Last edited by Pankration90 : 06-15-2005 at 10:33 PM.
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