David Valadez wrote:
Good posts Ron. Well said.
"Jon," while it may not be too relative to the thread, you might also want to check out AikidoJournal.com to get a more accurate understanding of Osensei's history. Your take on things could be called very romantic. Moreover, it is undoubtedly underlying your interpretation of the first post -- so maybe it is relative, though it should not be.
You must have misread my post or inadvertently read into it. I thought I clearly stated, I wasn't sure of Osensei's history. Followed by my request for any factual events that support the idea that "Osensei gained knowledge through real fights."
In other words, details of the combative encounters with empty hand techniques which Osensei was involved in, dates, places, people. Not like that he dodge bullets. More like what we know of Takeda and the life and death conflicts he was in. For instance, the time he was almost killed by a group of construction workers. A very well known and proved event.
Osensei must have known 100s of techniques, did he use each and every technique countless times in countless fights to gain the knowledge that WantToSpeakOut (WTSO) suggested? I am assuming that "knowledge" is the result of effectiveness and mechanics of technique. WTSO isn't all that clear.
Would it be possible for a Osensei to do such things as that of Takeda? Well, when compared to Takeda, a man, who probably [i]did[/did] gain much of his "knowledge" as are result of his tumultuous life-style and experiences in life and death bouts through out most of his adult life, would make sense. Yet, Takeda also incipiently learned his skills in a dojo or instruction in a cooperative environment, before he used them to save his life or end others. No one put a sword in Takeda's hand first then send him into to battle without formal instruction. No one handed him a sword when he was not trained in it to go down and challenge the best swordsman you can find, and then cut him down in the street, without formal instruction. Takeda was first instructed formally techniques with someone who cooperated.
Osensei on the other hand, also wasn't told to go out and fight for your life without martial training. That would have been inept and inaccurate to think that way. Takeda taught him then he worked with cooperative students of different builds and stature also there to learn what Takeda offered. Takeda didn't have Osensei on his first, second, third, hundredth day experience of go out get in a street brawl with local thugs and brigands. At a lesser degree, try and break Osensei's training partners into little pieces either. WTSO, said isn't all that accurate or feasible. Talk about trolling...I mean...romanticizing, WTSO is a good example.
If WTSO had said it was Takeda who gained knowledge through real fights, the argument would have been stronger. But not completely true. I am not criticizing either man, I am pointing out the life of a person who just doesn't pay lip service or markets what it means to be in realistic situations. Each man took different paths, Osensei's is markedly different then the unrestrained fighting life of Takeda. Both men refined their skill teaching others in a dojo, demonstrating or teaching at seminars. Both men worked with cooperative people when first learning their art. That is a part of the learning process, as seen in centuries of martial ways and martial arts instruction. It's called practice.
This is the point I was getting at and mentioning how unreasonable WTSO statement was. I you can see, I think you misread me or something. I am not
romanticizing by any ways or means at all. I just want WTSO to back up with supportive details the ambiguous statement he made. Call it protocol. It is all just another indicator that leans me toward the idea that WTSO took a possible actual experience and used it to get an emotional response and push an agenda, consciously or not.