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Old 06-14-2005, 01:16 PM   #290
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 74
Re: Aikido minus mysticism: a step forward

Michael Gallagher wrote:
My street clothes are (a) still not the same as what I wear to practice, and (b) slightly tighter. So not quite the same thing.
If you're going to quote me, make sure you read the quote. I said, "At least some of the stuff that requires a grip on a gi or kurtka can be applied on street clothes." I didn't say everything used in bjj, judo, or sambo that requires a grip on clothing could be used on street clothes, which is my main argument against training in those uniforms for self defense. I said some of it could. The gi and kurtka are pieces of equipment used in a sport, and also have a small benefit for self defense (learning how to use your opponent's clothes to your advantage). Wearing a hakama has nothing to do with sport of self defense.

Michael Gallagher wrote:
No. The point I am trying to make is that my persepctive on Aikido has been shaped by my experiences OUTSIDE it. When I talk about preserving part of a culture, I got that from Kali and Serak, and my Kali instructor never said their were exceptions.

In fact, my experiences in Kali have shaped my posts since I joined Aikiweb. Bit late now to complain about it.
Everyone's perspective has been shaped by their own experiences, but that has nothing to do with what I said. I made a comment about aikido masters, and you're response was about a bunch of JKD and FMA guys. Please try to stay on topic.

Michael Gallagher wrote:
Neither were chess or gardening if it comes to it.
That was the point I was making. Those things weren't invented to make people a better person, but someone could still use those things for that end. It's the same with martial arts.

If you guys want to think that learning how to break arms, strangle people until they pass out, knock people out with strikes, throw people (most people don't know how to fall properly), stab them with knives, hit them with sticks, etc. is the only way to become a better person then there's nothing I can do for you. If Kano, Ueshiba, and all these other people were so concerned with self-improvement they would have come up with a religion or philosophy, not a way to injure people.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Shoalin temple traditions say it was developed to help monks be able to medidate longer and more effectively, the martial applications were an off shoot. Don't know how true or valid this might be. (Mike Sigman, seems to be the scholar in this area).
Even if that story is true (which I doubt), then it doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Shaolin martial arts supposedly came from a group of exercises so the monks could meditate longer. The exercises were for one thing, but the 'martial applications' are for fighting. Look at the name.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Kano, developed Judo explicitly for self improvement as a goal
Funakoshi developed Karatedo for self improvement as a goal
Uesheba developed Aikido....
Kano didn't develop anything. He repackaged jiu-jitsu into a more "friendly" version that didn't have a thuggish image attached to it.

Funakoshi didn't develop karate. He took Okinawan martial arts to the rest of Japan.

Ueshiba didn't develop anything either. He took aikijujitsu and other stuff he studied, combined it with his religious/spiritual beliefs, and started teaching.

One thing you're forgetting that judo and karate were a result of the Meiji Restoration, and that post-war aikido was another attempt to get away from the "war-like" mentality that JMA used to have.

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
If you are into MA strictly for the fighting skills, I think there are much better ways to spend your time training. Especially stay away from the "DO" arts.
I train for fun and competition. Spirituality and religion aren't necessary for my goals, or for the goals of people who train for self defense.

Jon Reading wrote:
You want to train in aikido but take out the spiritual component, the self-improvement component and the cultural component. Why are you practicing aikido?
People have different reasons for training. Not all of them want to become 'Little Ueshibas'. Some people are perfectly happy with their own culture, tradition, and spiritual/religious beliefs.

Again, aikido has very little to do with Japanese culture. There is more to a culture than clothes, words, and fighting techniques. If I told you I could preserve American culture by wearing jeans, speaking English, and fighting would you believe me?
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