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Old 06-07-2005, 02:18 AM   #77
Red Beetle
Dojo: Ithaca
Location: Tennessee
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 97
Re: So I took a Judo class today...

Michael Neal]Capital Jiu Jitsu in Alexandria, Virginia
I have always heard good things about this place.

The guys you refer to are likely wrestlers with many years experiece and likely have Judo training as well, you mentioned the instructor had Judo training. So if I did spar them I would not be going against pure Jiu Jitsu, I would be fighting MMA fighters.
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu guys will not often stand upright as in classical Kodokan Judo. They skew their stance (stagger stance) and lower their levels (jigo-hontai). This is considered a defensive posture in classical Judo. The Jiu-jitsu guys know that this makes it harder to enter in general, and to throw front in particular (usually you have to square if the guy is staggered before throwing front). The guys I refer to are aggressive, and attempt to score at each level of the game. If you can get some tapes of Murilio Bustamonte, you might see some of the Jiu-jitsu takedown variations. They are typically high percentage takedowns, and if you miss, your not in too bad of position.

You can't have it both ways, you say that people who win MMA matches using Judo are not true Judoka since they crosstrain. Then you have Jiu Jitsu guys who cross train many styles and then claim it is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No it is MMA, and I will readily admit that someone who trains MMA is likely a better fighter than me, no question.
Think back to before the UFC ever come on TV. Before 1992. Before the average person ever heard of Gracie Jiu-jitsu in this country, there was guys training specifically for Olympic Judo. Guys such as Ben Spijker (this is the Judo guy Renzo stepped on in the World Combat Championships). Gracie Jiu-jitsu was combat effective before UFC and mixed martial arts. Royce demonstrated this with clarity.

Judo guys recognized most of what Royce was doing to win matches. What they did not recognize was how Royce was making these boxers, kick-boxers, shoot-fighters, and karate guys miss their strikes. I can't tell you how many Judo guys I have heard say, "Wow, look how he keeps that guy from hitting him when he has him in the guard!" I remember asking a Korean Judo instructor what the difference between Judo and Gracie Jiu-jitsu was (this was pre-UFC....he had got a hold of a Gracie In Action tape). The guy told me, "It is a modified version of Judo. They have changed Judo, in my opinion, so that they can fight anyone and win. Just like a fight, anyone can hit at any time while they are trying to wrestle them, and it can be really brutal to watch."

Judo is designed for Gi or No Gi, it does not matter, you just have to alter the grip
If this were true, then you would see plenty of guys who have done Judo applying for college wrestling scholarships and getting them, based upon years of Judo growing up. What would really happen though is when they went to a try out for the team they would get their butt schooled on no-gi takedown wrestling. I used to wrestle a guy from Carson-Newman College. Carson-Newman is not Iowa, but they got a wrestling team, and this guy was on it. He was not their best guy by far. He slightly outweighed me, was a bit stronger, but we rolled often. Brother, if he had a gi on, and I could get a grip, then he would bitch, but he didn't have a gi on.....look out. I had to learn a considerable amount of folk-style, free-style, and Greco-Roman wrestling before I could be effective against them. If you don't know their game, then you will get whipped.

Just go to this web-site ( and see how much info is available on western wrestling, then compare it to instructional material available on Judo. Judo is way behind.
College wrestling teams and coaches know all about the wrestling programs of the other schools they compete against. They share info freely and often between schools. You will not see Jimmy Pedro on Real Pro Wrestling anytime soon.
Another reason, I believe, is because western wrestling is not considered mystical, magical, does not rely on magic energy (ki), and has not in the past been kept within secret circles. Coaches tend to teach as much as they can, while traditional senseis are slow to release "secrets", and look for special people to show them to.
Finally, western wrestling has an enormous field of competition for their athletes to practice and learn with. This is not the case with Judo in this country. This country sucks at Judo. The best we have produced was a two time bronze medalist.

. I am not sure what your point is about the front headlock, it is an effective technique, but that does not mean Judo techniques are not
The front-headlock is not found in Judo or traditional Jiu-jitsu. It is a hold that was designed by Western wrestlers who did not wear a kimono. Asian styles stand upright, but western styles change levels. This is why the front-headlock was developed. Learn this hold and its set ups, then you can mess up your Judo buddies just for meanness. So, the point of bringing up the front-headlock is to give you an example of the complete difference between Judo and western no-gi wrestling.

Just consider how advanced the Double-leg is in wrestling as compared to that piss poor Judo version called Morote-gari. Modern Judo has been trying to implement more wrestling skills into their program, but old traditional Judo retards refuse to admit that someone else may have a better technique of attack. Consider the Low-level-Single. This is a wrestling takedown that is so different from anything in Judo that you just can't imagine.
John Smith has a nice instructional out on this one. Consider the arm-spin. The arm-spin is a dynamic throw that can be done from multiple tie ups. Kurt Angle was super fast at this throw. Check out his Gold medal match in the Olympics.

Maybe Mike Swain will put out the first NO-GI Judo Instructional DVDs. I'm sure his bronze medalist's no-gi takedown tactics would be tops over someone like Cael Sanderson.

All I was saying was that I took a grip as in koshigaruma, not that koshigaruma was a grip in itself.
I knew what you were talking about. I was just giving you a hard time. The 67 throws are named after the Kake, not the Tsukuri, or the Kazushi. Don't be intimidated by the terminology. When you start a new subject, you have to master the terms. The same would apply if you were to go to Law School, or a Physics class.
Plus, you sound cool when you can tell someone that you did a Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi, then went to Yoko-shiho-Gatame, and from there switched to Tate-shiho-gatame, and finally applied Sankaku-jime when the guy rolled out.

We don't learn the grips by the names you have said here, we just do them. Just because I don't know the name of the grip does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.
Your right.
The United States Judo Federation has a tape called: Get A Grip
It is not a beautiful piece of production, but it goes over most of the grips in modern Judo and gives you the names and alternate names. It shows competition examples with each grip. It is only about $20.00 so don't be cheap. You need this tape.

I am curious, what is your rank in Judo and what organization was it issued by?
I'm just a little old Shodan.
I went black in a Korean Judo school. They are rougher than most Japanese Judo schools. The one I was in was really rough. It was like the Cobra Kai school on the Karate Kid movie. They didn't run around and beat everybody up like the movie, but you would often hear things like, "Pain does not exist in this dojo." "You want to get off the mat and get a drink of water? Yes, go home and get a drink, and don't come back.", "Your just bleeding, you can still wrestle, so what is your problem?" He didn't have many students.
I am in the U.S.J.F., and a member of Shufu-Yudanshakai.

Because I have never heard anyone test or require Judoka to know the names of the grips.
The United States Judo Association has a Syllabus which I highly recommend that YOU get a copy of. They explain in outline form what each lower and Dan belt should know. You will see that they require you to know more and more grips as you progress. The syllabus is about $25.00.

Your place sounds great
You'd like it.
If there was a better place to train Judo at in my area, then I would be there.

Red Beetle
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