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Old 05-23-2005, 07:27 AM   #74
Dojo: Zanshin Kai
Location: Birmingham
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 865
United Kingdom
Re: techniquies in street fights

Matt Molloy wrote:

I assume that they are just letting you do this?

Because if they aren't, you could well be in trouble.
No, you're crushing their wind pipe and taking their balance. It's an either or situation. Either they try and stop you throttling them, which they have a matter of seconds to do before they pass out or they do something about their wrist and either way they're being thrown. I don't see that they have too much of a choice. If you pile your body weight into them (as you would in a life or death situation) or you have strong hands you'll stand a chance of crushing the tracea in which case it's all over for them, simple as that. As far as I know they're dead in about 4 minutes, something like that but they pass out long before that, like 40 seconds or something. So no, they're not just letting you do it.

Matt Molloy wrote:
Strange. Everywhere I've ever trained, if we wanted to train against a punch, we got somebody to try and punch us. Wild but true.
Yeah but usually you teach the technique and then you throw in the punch. Keeps the newbies happy.

Matt Molloy wrote:
But what happened to your quick reactions? Or are you assuming that you're the only one who has them?

What if..*gulp*...They have them too?
Then it'll be life where anything goes as I've been trying to get past your preconceptions. You're happy to rant on about how fast an expert with a knife is, why can't someone else be just as fast? Yes he has a knife. Yes he knows what he's doing with it, yes he's fast but that's only him and he's only half the equation here. What about the person he's facing? Unlike you I'm not making out that I or anyone else will always win, I'm just pointing out the obvious: The knife expert will not always win either.

That is not arrogance or ignorance, that's life. In the interplay of martial arts, personality and experience anything is possible.

Matt Molloy wrote:
One of the reasons for wrist grabs in Aikido is that the systems of Ju-Jutsu that eventually became modern Aikido were developed by people who would be armed and would possibly have other people trying to neutralize those arms by employing the wrist grab.
Actually Ju-jitsu started off as part of knife fighting. Often during the Gempei wars Samurai would end up grappling, certainly the Heike Monogatari makes it out to be this way, and so the tanto was the weapon of choice. Remember though that Ju-jitsu is as much a last resort for a unarmed Samurai as it is a response to being grabbed while armed, which is where tantodori, jodori and all your tachidori came from. During the Sengoku era Ju-jitsu was as full of weapons as any martial art for this reason. On the battlefield you could end up unarmed and facing anything. So you're telling a half truth there.
Remember also that even armed combat involved a lot grappling, kicking and punching there wasn't the Edo period distinction between armed and unarmed yet. Hence Kenjitsu ryu would teach throws, locks and takedowns and Ju-jitsu ryu would teach sword and spear techniques. Martial arts were much more pragmatic and less dogmatic back then purely because all the dogmatic ones got wiped out on the battlefield.
Matt Molloy wrote:
As other people have so eloquently pointed out, in the case of somebody who knows what they are doing with a knife, they would have used it before you were aware that it was there.
Answer me this are they faster or slower without the knife? What is it about the knife itself which makes them any faster than they could be with out a knife? Wing chun is damn fast but you can block the punches or get out of range or do something, roll into their feet, whatever. So why is it that when the knife enters into the equation it's suddenly game over? Your argument is a dogmatic as the belife that Aikido is invincible.
My entire point is that I don't need to be aware of the knife, I just need to be aware of what they're doing with their hands. Like I said earlier basically what you are de facto stating is that learning to use a knife makes you a brilliant boxer because something about training with a knife makes your hand attacks unstoppable. In any amateur match where it's the contact that counts you'd be racking up points like no tommorrow.
Using your argument I could have taken them down before he even got a chance to draw it and claimed the pendant around my neck is unstoppable. It's a poor argument.

Matt Molloy wrote:
Firstly, go to your sensei, tell them that you could stop them using a training tanto by dint of your super reflexes and tactics (which include the idea of immobilising an Aikido sensei by grabbing his/her wrist ) and, when they've wiped the tears of laughter from their eyes see if they'll let you try.

When you've picked yourself up from the dojo floor a couple of times, see if you still think your ideas would work.

Secondly, find a FMA group and see what people who train in a knife based system can really do.

Thirdly, be so good as to let us know if these experiences change your point of view.


If I'd suggested that I could immobilise them by holding their wrist I'd be daft and all martial arts would consist of grabbing your opponents wrist.
I said I could stop them stabbing me by holding their wrist long enough to floor them. There's a difference.
Now then if I'm up with my Sensei, or anyone else and he asks for Gakyu hamni (or even if he's standing there pondering what he's going to do next) and I rush in, take his wrist and also his throat and step through him and reap his leg what do you think would happen? He's expecting it as much as the Kail expert would be.

Stratagy, stratagy, stratagy. That's why you do martial arts, to learn that in combat brute strength and technique and weapons can all be over come one way or another and then once that realisation is made you realise that everything in martial arts is psychological. Ultimately it's not your body that moves but your mind.
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