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Old 05-19-2005, 02:16 PM   #34
rob_liberti
Dojo: Shobu Aikido of Connecticut
Location: East Haven, CT
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,402
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Re: Basic elements of Aikido

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learning how to acquire ki and kokyu skills is, as Tohei indicated, in the physical realm
No argument there!

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I'm not sure why you're comparing "spiritual enlightenment" of sorts with the physical skills of ki and kokyu.
I guess I don't understand why you think that Zen is a complex enough subject in comparison, or why you don't think it was rediscovered. History would seem to indicate otherwise. In my opinion, the realms you mention (physical verse spiritual) do not really matter since they both have the 'mental' approach required for discovery/rediscovery _in common_. About your issue of this idea of being rediscovered "as a whole", certainly a lot of the surface level stuff was there as a major help the new Zen master get started, but couldn't we say the same for martial arts people trying to discover more efficient ways of doing things? Isn't there a lot of other helping information? O-sensei had the kotodama, and specifically tells us that this was his inspiration. Remember the whole "aikido is on spirit, 4 souls, 3 orgins, and 8 powers" quote. You can find that information in Gleason sensei's book, and I'm sure you can find his references from there.

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Insofar as your contention, without having shown any indication of expertise to support it, that someone can rediscover a subject that is complex in its whole (i.e., you can certainly "rediscover" a thing here and there, but you couldn't possibly rediscover a whole subject that was developed over many generations),
For the record, I was only challenging one of your ideas (which we do on forums). This comment of yours "without having shown any indidation to expertise to support it" seems a bit inconsistent with the idea of not trying to argue on a personal level, but I'll address it without escalation. I suppose the first thing to point out is that this is a forum not and encyclopedia. And the second point that springs to my mind would be: Exactly what certification do I need to make that contention? I really don't need to be a Zen master to have learned that there was a period in time when no one recieved retransmission from a Zen Master, I basically need the reading skills developed by the time I was in 4th grade for that. (I can probably find my 4th grade report card if you want; I'm sure I passed "reading".) Making the logical conclusion that there are Zen masters alive today shows that very complex things can be rediscovered - and I don't have to be a Zen master or have the skills of O-sensei to draw that conclusion either. Now to trivialize the rediscovery of something as complex as Zen enough to dismiss it, that seems to be horse of a different color...

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I suggest that you pursue it that way and let us know how it works out.
Honestly, I will certainly pursue it through every avenue I think is valuable and I'll do it without putting down everyone else's approach - OR even eluding to it. That will help keep me from starting useless arguments that devolve to the personal level.

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As I've noted, I have no desire to get into another useless argument that devolves every time to the personal level.
That is well understood and I agree. I'm certainly not taking it personally. If you just wanted to state your opinions and have them "unchallenged" by simply stating you would like to avoid argument, that would be an unrealitic expectation in an internet forum and suggest that you consider writing a book. If that is not the case, then there is no need to take anything I write personally either. You can just accept or ignore the feedback on the perception of your words.

I would let a lot more stuff go on some of these ones, except that I feel for anyone who might be reading these threads years later if no one bothered to jump in and say "I don't agree with that and here is why."

Rob
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