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Old 04-24-2005, 03:16 PM   #104
Mike Sigman
Location: Durango, CO
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,123
Re: Shioda, Tohei, and Ki Things

James Bostwick wrote:
2. We have talked about Ki and I've been clear, not vague, about my perspectives. I brought up a number of points related to your posts and you decided that that wasn't good enough--your choice.
Here's the only definitive things I could find that you *opined*... you backed up your opinions, though, only with "there appear to be" and "I have to think".

> And yet, there do appear to be obvious differences between Ueshiba's
> movements and those found in Chinese arts. To my eye, the difference in
> rythm and overall mechanics looks to be a different flavor of Ki
> manipulation--not necessarily better or worse, just different. The most
> telling thing, though, is Ueshiba's "inability" to transmit what he had,
> or as you suggested, unwillingness. But for someone who surely wanted
> Aikido to spread, I have to think it was the former, rather than the
> latter. Perhaps, he never full understood why he was able to do what he
> did.

So basically, all you have said is that the ki of Aikido (or Ueshiba) is different, in your opinion, from the ki used in Chinese martial arts. Your later comments indicated that you in fact know almost nothing about Chinese martial arts, though. So we're left with you perhaps still taking the position that the ki in Aikido is not the ki used in Chinese martial arts. So I'd like to see you support how this can be true.
4. Your insinuation that you can know about a teacher or their organization from watching videos given your background is pretty shaky ground for an argument against someone who was actually immersed in the culture under scrutiny for a number of years. Personally, I wouldn't make it.
I think the basic point is that you're maintaining that the ki Tohei uses must be different from the ki everyone else uses and therefore I could not possibly understand what Tohei is really doing. So let's start with your making a case for why the ki of Aikido is different from what I know and which is in other martial arts.
5. Lastly, to reiterate, my issue is with your generalizations about Aikido and some of its pioneers--including Shioda, by the way, but I can't speak for the Yoshinkai, so I won't. Which is exactly what I stated earlier. Tohei is just one example, not necessarily the most prevalent. It just happens to be a subject I know well enough to debate, and therefore have.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Is it something along the lines of I'm not qualified to make generalizations, I don't have permission from the Aikido Committee to make generalizations, I can't make generalizations unless I studied with Tohei personally, or what? You're not being clear.
By the way, I don't know Shaun Ravens, but I followed your discussion with him in the forum. It seems to me that given he is/was a student of Abe for a number of years, you might want to take his word on Abe's teachings and perspectives, especially since you're doing research and all that, and may not necessarily have any other connection with that branch of Aikido. I wouldn't be so quick dismiss any offers I got in that area if I were genuinely searching for knowledge with an open mind and not just looking to feed a confirmation bias. Your mileage may vary.
I asked Shaun repeatedly to clarify his positions, but he appears to prefer to go to personalities instead of substantive give-and-take discussion. Here is the only substantive thing he's said since I joined the forum, and he seems want to avoid any commitments on what Ki is, how to practice, etc. :

(From the Misogi thread)
However, for the record, and again just so that we are all working from the
same page. Kokyu-ho is the breathing method applied when practicing
Kokyu-dosa (popular breath exercise usually done with a partner, in seiza)

So Shaun has defined Kokyu-ho-dosa as a breath exercise done with a partner. I have said somewhere previously what I think it is. All he needs to do is explain why he thinks it is a practice in a "breathing method" and we can go forward and avoid these discussions about personality. If you could explain why you think the ki of Aikido is different from the ki used in other martial arts, I'd be interested in hearing it.


Mike Sigman
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