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Darren 03-14-2006 12:22 PM

final lock doesn't work
 
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. Don't just take my word for it , try it and see what you think , but after training with a couple of bjj people they gave me realization they only work if uke cooperates. All your views welcome!

Ron Tisdale 03-14-2006 12:46 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
In general, I've found that they work best when applied while standing, and maintained throughout until the final tap. But most people won't like the pain that goes with that, and I couldn't practice that way all the time. BJJ/judo style locks and pins seem to be a bit different in that it's easier to go from control to severe control to break in easy gradients. Aikido pins seem too often to go from loose control to break or dislocate really fast...sometimes without much in between.

Even ikkajo/ikkyo pin...just hold down the arm above the elbow and pick up on the wrist. I've known dislocations to occur very quickly that way. Whether or not that is *good* aikido is another question...

Best,
Ron

justinmaceachern 03-14-2006 01:22 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Kind a conflicted here. I know for sure the few final locks will work and some wont. I have had the opportunity to bounce in a bar where trust me i got a lot of practice. and you are right some locks judt wont work. But the thing is learning a lock that will work all of the time, for instants no one has evr gotten out of a nikyo that I have put on some one but they almost always get out of ikyo. I thinks that is because drunk poeple are used to flailing thier arms about. as always that is just my opinion.
Have a great day.

Alec Corper 03-14-2006 01:22 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Hello Darren,
No disrespect intended, but in order to forestall yet another "Is Aikido really effective?" threads, I can only say, it depends who does it.
Or as I heard one Shihan say in response to the question, "does Aikido work? Mine does."

ChrisHein 03-14-2006 01:26 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Darren Kennedy wrote:
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work.

Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.

However many of the pins if applied with attention to the shoulder, work well, you must also realize that you must be willing to brake the arm if they wiggle too much. In Juji gatami (common arm bar in both Bjj and Judo) if I were just to "hold" you there and not truly have intentions of braking your arm you could eventually wiggle out, even on a very skilled practitioner. Aikido's "pins" are much the same way, you cannot simply hold them there, and think you have an iron lock down on you attacker, you must threaten to brake if they wiggle, this is no different then Bjj or Judo submission holds.

The third factor is a weapon, I believe the main reason Aikido pins aren't body on (like say a wrestling pin, Bjj pin, or Judo pin) is because you need to keep your body away from the other hand. In Aikido pins you will generally control one arm fully (the one you know is armed) and stay away from and watch the other arm (the one that may be armed but you don't' know about yet), this gives you a superior blend of safety and control in weapons situations. If you want to see how this works, set up your friend in a Nikyo pin, and hold a knife to the back of his neck and see how much wiggling and escaping he can do them. Notice how O-sensei had a tegatana coming down at the end of most of his pins (probably representing a real katana).

-Chris Hein

Ron Tisdale 03-14-2006 01:32 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Nice post Chris...
Best,
Ron

Dajo251 03-14-2006 01:47 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:
Well this depends on a few factors. First what pins are you applying? some of Aikido's pins have been "softend" so people don't complain as much during training. A good example of this is the Ikkyo pin as it is commonly applied, you just lay the arm down next to the person and hold it there with both arms, any able person will just roll over their own arm and get out from there.


-Chris Hein

I asked my sensei about that ikkyo pin being ineffective, and he asked If I wanted to see an effecteve ikkyo pin well I had a not so soft ikkyo pin done to me, I thought my shoulder was going to be torn from its socket, and there was no way I could fight it wiith out causing great bodily harm to myself, and at the end it did end up with one of his hands at my wrist and the other at the elbow...oh man my shoulder hurts just thinking about that

Kevin Leavitt 03-14-2006 02:30 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Good post Chris. I was going to head in the same direction you did. so no need to repeat. Locks and the application depend on many factors. From the standard aikido approach that most of us study under they are applied correctly. Grappling locks are good and necessary in many situations and frankly I think they should be studied as a part of martial arts. However, in studying aikido, which is typically principle oriented I don't see a need to practice them since they are pointless to the process of conveying the principles.

batemanb 03-14-2006 02:35 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Darren Kennedy wrote:
I've been looking at the final lock or pin of aikido moves and can honestly say that without a passive uke they do not work. !

Yeah they do, if you do them properly. You need to take your focus away from applying the pin, unbalance your uke first, then compromise them, then apply the pin. If they put up a fight, be prepared to use atemi, I don't necessarily mean a smack in the gob, don't exclude it, but look to distract them. You need to step away from fighting with a resistant uke to doing something else. Go ask your sensei why you can't get it to work on non compliant ule's, he's the best person to work with, everyone here will have ideas and opinions but none of us will be on the mat with you to demonstrate.

rgds
Bryan

Ben Eaton 03-14-2006 02:38 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
When I had the Ikkyo pin applied to me, at first I thought it was ineffective, but when done properly* and relaxed, kneeling with the tegatanas pinning the arm actually do prevent a person from getting up, a lot of it is being relaxed while the other struggles wildly to get free.
My sensei demonstrated what happens when someone tries to hit you with the other arm, he merely looped his left around mine, rested his knee (I think) in place of the other hand and voila, I was totally helpless.

In my relatively short Aikido experience, if I was applying a pin I may need to resort to more "street-effective" and unorthadox methods if I didn't want to injure the attacker, but I'm confident that with more experience in applying the techniques I would be able to rely mainly upon them instead of falling back on previous experience.
Every lesson I feel I may be getting the hang of a technique, but then I get shown a tiny thing that makes it that little bit more effective. I was also told that out there, whatever you can do to pin them, do it, don't try too hard to make a specific pin work or else it'll be too late.
If in any doubts, ask your sensei. He may, as Daniel found out, demonstrate a non-training pin. :)

*I say properly only in the sense of the way I personally have been shown how to perform the pin, and this in no way reflects changes in methods that may occur from club to club.

Larry Cuvin 03-14-2006 02:47 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Darren,
With my limited experience in Ki Aikido, try this nikkyo pin experiment: Get a good uke that will try hard to get out of the pin. Have him lie down on his/her stomach and place his/her right arm perpendicular to the his/her body. Kneel down so that your knees touches the arm as if you are performing the finish. Place your left "unbendable arm" above the elbow (do not apply force as this will give your uke something to fight with). With your right hand, apply the nikkyo finish by sending the ki from your ukes fingertips back toward his/her head imagining a huge arc. Lastly, relax when you do this. Then, ask your uke to try and get out of the pin.

Your left unbendable are will provide a ceiling or a stop that the uke can't go beyond. Your right hand will provide the excruciating pain (just be carefull not to injure the hand). When done right, this example pin worked all the time in my training.

If you try the experiment, please post the result.
Safe Training,
Larry

Darren 03-14-2006 02:49 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Adman 03-14-2006 02:50 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Kevin Leavitt wrote:
Locks and the application depend on many factors.

Yeah, like how long you've trained.

Not much of anything I did was particularly effective when I was starting out. However, with a little training under your belt, going for a pin, full boar, without an understanding of what can happen to a resistant uke, is downright scary. I suppose this could tie into the "how many times have you gotten hurt?" thread.

Ron Tisdale 03-14-2006 02:54 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
ahem...except of course...IF YOU BREAK THE ARM. In a cooperative or sportive environment, I would not be willing to do that. In other environments...I may well make a different choice.

I qualify that as working.

Best,
Ron

Adman 03-14-2006 02:55 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Darren Kennedy wrote:
NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Really? :confused:

justin 03-14-2006 03:49 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
[NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO[/quote]



i think this should read "no matter what I do" as you cant surley speak for everyone else here.

I myself still cringe when i have a good sankyo put on me and i know it is coming.

Nick Simpson 03-14-2006 04:01 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Nothing works forever. Do you need to pin someone for 24 hours? Im fairly sure not. While your pinning someone your mates could be putting the boot in (uncivilized and un-aiki but its a fact) whats the problem with breaking the arm (except in the dojo/sports) if someone is absolutely set on getting up then you WILL have to up the violence factor if you want to keep em down...

bratzo_barrena 03-14-2006 04:03 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
If the pin doesn't work is because is not properly applied. Mechanically the aikido locks work and are effective and requiere not much mucsle power. But for what i've seen, most people don't apply them correctly, some assume they are doing them right, but they're not. Some just don't do it right to be gentle with uke; and others make both of those mistakes.
Too much emphasis in the technique but poor instruction on pins are also a problem

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor
Aikido Goshin Dojo, Doral, FL

eyrie 03-14-2006 04:14 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
The pins can and do work - without breaking uke's shoulder/arm/wrist. If the pins aren't working for you, it's because the structure isn't formed correctly. Limiting the range of motion, creating a base, using underlying anatomical structures etc. are ways to make the pins work. Look up an anatomy reference and experiment gently.

Michael O'Brien 03-14-2006 04:31 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Darren Kennedy wrote:
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Darren,

For me the question comes to mind "Why did you do the pin?" If I am taking someone down into an ikkyo pin for example then I am trying to approach this using the least amount of violence possible. I don't want to hold them there for an extended period of time. They go down, they feel the pain, they realize (hopefully) this could be a whole lot worse, and they decide to go take out their agressions elsewhere.

If they get up and continue in their stupidity then at that point, yes, perhaps a broken arm, dislocated shoulder, etc may be in order.

The pin works to accomplish the purpose it was designed for when properly applied.

Aiki LV 03-14-2006 05:01 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock doesn't work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passive , but with an uncooperative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO
:confused: I'm not sure why exactly you asked for others thoughts on this? It seems to me you've made up your mind and have no intention of taking into account what others are saying. If you were really curious about what others thought and wanted to have a discussion you would attempt to refute their point of view. Referring back to your original post instead of coming up with new arguments to counter theirs says to me you want to make a statement, not have a discussion. If that is the case, have no fear I'm sure someone will come along to agree with you and validate your statement. ;)

Robert Rumpf 03-14-2006 05:04 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
I may be retreading ground here, but I'll chime in anyway...

To be frank, I too have often wondered about the utility of immobilizing pins in Aikido.. but from a somewhat different perspective. I have often wondered what the purpose of a lasting pin in a non-sporting art is supposed to be.

In a multiple attacker situation, a lasting pin is pretty useless. Even a brief pin is fairly pointless and probably dangerous. I'm sure that there are people who can pin more than one person at once, but I've only seen that done once in an Aikido dojo, and it wasn't taught or meant to be lasting, and that is well beyond the skills of even (I'd guess) most BJJ people.

If the person has a weapon, taking the weapon and/or destroying the person's capacity to attack will be the priority, and after that, the pin is less interesting. If I've got the knife, why do I need to pin them if they keep attacking?

In a lethal force situation or other situation where you're willing to inflict serious damage, a lasting pin is likewise useless. Just do a brief pin to a break. Why would you not just break the person if you can, and move on from there in case their friends arrive?

If you decide to simply restrain someone who is attacking you and you're one-on-one, what's next? Presumably, you send someone else to call for help, or you cow the person into submission by the force of your personality or whatever... Those both sound like weak answers, and anyone who is around to get help would most likely be able to help you smash someone struggling out of your pin, even if you need the help. Likewise, you can smash them yourself or break off a piece of them if they try to struggle out from the pin.

I've had people struggle out of my Aikido pins, typically while my hands or other weapons were inches from their eyes or other vulnerable places. If I was really worried about them escaping, I would have done something more painful or permanent to prevent it.

If you're in a conflict with someone you don't want to damage (a drunk friend) avoidance is probably better than risking pinning for the long term and the potential damage that may incur, or having to wait until they sober up.

I guess that the only real use I can see for pins is to immobilize someone temporarily in a police-like role, or for this type of "I have weak, near allies" situation I mention above. But a policeman would be able to handcuff the person even from an Aikido pin - handcuffs are a more effective pin overall, even than a BJJ pin.

There are I suppose situations you could imagine where a lasting, non-damaging pin might be useful, for a time at least.. but I still don't imagine anything like that being common, and there are other skills sooner in the encounter chain that it would be more advantageous to practice more thoroughly.

That said, what's the point of spending a LOT of time teaching lasting, non-violent pins in a non-sporting art and expecting them to be effective 100% of the time?

There are more interesting and relevant things to teach, unless you want to demonstrate submission for the purposes of a contest (like BJJ or Judo), or you want to bully someone, or unless you just want a pretty way to end your technique.

Until I can get the beginning of my Aikido technique to work correctly, why should I worry about the end overly much?

Just my opinion,
Rob

Michael Douglas 03-14-2006 05:53 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
I agree with Robert Rumpf,
to me the pins seem to be a nod to
taking a weapon off the pinned, not
a long term restraint.
Either that, or a position from which to
inflict great pain and force a 'submission'.

I don't think that pointing out that a struggling
non-aikidoka can get out of a lot of people's
ikkyo pins is at all interesting, or even
surprising. I just don't think it is there
for pinning-per-se.

Upyu 03-14-2006 06:17 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Quote:

Darren Kennedy wrote:
I understand what you are saying Chris but try and maintain any of the locks for any period of time without having to break ukes arm . The locks themselves are not effective unless you break ukes arm . I'm only trying to look at the effectiveness of aikido on a personal level and this was one point I came up against where I had to question. Like I said in my first post, try it with a person that is non compliant with what you you are doing and you'll find the lock does'nt work .Yes if you cooperate they work obviously , mainly because uke is passsive , but with an uncooprative uke they have many ways out of your pin . NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO

Heh, just means you're just copying the "shape" of the pin, and don't have the finer details down. I don't do Aikido, but the instructor at the standup place I train at can do similar techniques (though he got them from DRAJJ) and there isn't any way you can get out of them ;)
I also do BJJ, and with the training I've had in this particular standup, it's pretty hard for the people in my class to snap on an armbar on me if they're (guys that're 180lb+) just using muscle and weight. So it goes both ways, its not a problem just in Aikido.

Maybe you should look a little deeper into what it is you're exactly training. And I wouldn't say it's technique. :D

eyrie 03-14-2006 06:45 PM

Re: final lock doesn't work
 
Also consider the possibilties for kaeshi-waza if uke manages to slip the pin. There are many hidden osae komi and kansetsu waza encoded in the ikkyo-rokyo waza. (Well, hidden in plain sight of course!) These waza are the mother of all other technical variations.... and they almost invariably manifest themselves when uke is not passive and being uncooperative.

E.g. Does anyone use the rear hammerlock to effect a takedown into the pin from nikkyo? Or how about switching to gokyo from ikkyo if uke attempts to pull their arm out from under the pin? Or transitioning into juji-gatame or reverse juji? How many here exploit the Golgi tendon reflex for an ikkyo pin?

I like it when uke struggles - it gives me more opportunity to do other things - in an aiki fashion of course!

So, next time uke struggles, take it for what it is - a gift to explore and learn.

;)


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