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-   -   weapon training for lower ranks (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9984)

karim\\\ 03-11-2006 11:11 PM

weapon training for lower ranks
 
do beginners need to train on weapons or is it too early???

Mark Uttech 03-11-2006 11:23 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho
- Mark Uttech

karim\\\ 03-11-2006 11:26 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
what does it mean to move ur hands from ur center not from ur shoulders or arms??

karim\\\ 03-11-2006 11:36 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
i seeeeeee there is a guy who told that weapon training teach to move ur hands from ur center not from ur arms that's trippin .....how can i do that man

Tom Liauw 03-12-2006 12:16 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Interesing.

I was at my first seminar few weeks back, I've only practiced for two weeks before. There we practiced with jo and tanto. And it actually helped my (barehanded) technique alot.

I can't really explain how, but it's like I somehow can see the bigger picture.

karim\\\ 03-12-2006 12:39 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Thomas Liauw wrote:
Interesing.

I was at my first seminar few weeks back, I've only practiced for two weeks before. There we practiced with jo and tanto. And it actually helped my (barehanded) technique alot.

I can't really explain how, but it's like I somehow can see the bigger picture.

ummmm i c can u send me any description or something cuz it's really eating my head man how to move ur hands without ur arms or shoulder's

karim\\\ 03-12-2006 12:42 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
ooooooooooh i think i get it u move ur hands by moving ur whole body.......am i right??

Amir Krause 03-12-2006 07:57 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Different teachers have different approaches.

Some teachers (my own included) seem to feel the weapons make the learning more difficult and therefore require duration of empty hand practice prior to weapons practice. Other teachers (including a Shihan of our style) claim weapons are very important to learn from the start as the weapons work should teach one about posture, center line, mai and working with ones body.

So far, I found a correlation between the way a person has began his own way in M.A. and the way he teaches. Apparently, both ways are legitimate and depend on having a good teacher who knows how to teach in such a manner.

Amir

Qatana 03-12-2006 09:51 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Yes, Karim, you use your whole body. This has taken me threee years to figure out and I keep forgetting but just be patient and train, eventually things will start to make sense.
And then there will be Something Else to figure out...

SeiserL 03-12-2006 11:44 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
In FMA we start with weapons and later the hands.

IMHO, since Aikido comes from ken-jutsu, it halps make sense of why we move the way we do.

karim\\\ 03-12-2006 01:45 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Amir Krause wrote:
Different teachers have different approaches.

Some teachers (my own included) seem to feel the weapons make the learning more difficult and therefore require duration of empty hand practice prior to weapons practice. Other teachers (including a Shihan of our style) claim weapons are very important to learn from the start as the weapons work should teach one about posture, center line, mai and working with ones body.

So far, I found a correlation between the way a person has began his own way in M.A. and the way he teaches. Apparently, both ways are legitimate and depend on having a good teacher who knows how to teach in such a manner.

Amir

thnx amir.....but whats an m.a :blush:

justin 03-13-2006 02:27 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
martial art its an abbreviation

Nick Simpson 03-13-2006 05:43 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho
Agree with this. Though I dont see anything wrong with being taught how to use/handle a weapon correctly. Too many people pick up shinken incorrectly/dangerously etc etc...

MaryKaye 03-13-2006 01:51 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Our current regional head feels only advanced students should do weapons as if they start early they learn bad habits which are hard to correct later. I don't understand this--you have to start somewhere and wherever you start there may be bad habits, why worry particularly about the weapon bad habits?

I have done a little weapons work anyway and find it helpful--my teachers often say "Hold the arm like a bokken" or "This is a bokken strike, from the center, straight down" and those of us without weapons training find these corrections less than clear! I think some faults are amplified when you add a big wooden stick to them, which may make them easier to spot and correct. And a weapon attack when you are unarmed gives a "fear factor" which helps you learn to be calm under increasing pressure. Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

Mary Kaye

Qatana 03-13-2006 01:55 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Mary Kuhner wrote:
Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

Unless its Tarik being attacked by me- he just stood there and laughed! Over & over & over....

We do very little weaons work also (swords & mirrored walls don't mix) so it is extremely frustrating when my instructor says "like with a sword" and none of us has had the experience of doing technique with a sword.

Michael Varin 03-13-2006 06:57 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
If you do not train with weapons, particularly the bokken, you will be at a major disadvantage as far as understanding the art of aikido. While I'm sure that you can learn aiki without weapons training, the root of most of the techniques and attacks is Japanese sword culture. You will often see that the techniques don't quite fit many empty-hand situations. This is because the situations that the techniques/attacks where born from where armed situations.

Michael

ChrisHein 03-13-2006 07:43 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote:
Weapon training from the beginning is a good way to learn that weapons are not "weapons" but tools to help you learn and build on body movement. Nothing more. Nothing less. In gassho
- Mark Uttech

I would say just the opposite Mark, in fact I would say that the empty hand practice is not really empty hand practice, but in fact weapons technique.

In Aikido you really have no choice but to train weapons from the beginning, as weapons fighting is the only kind addressed in Aikido's traditional technical syllabus.

-Chris Hein

Chris Li 03-14-2006 01:25 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Mary Kuhner wrote:
Our current regional head feels only advanced students should do weapons as if they start early they learn bad habits which are hard to correct later. I don't understand this--you have to start somewhere and wherever you start there may be bad habits, why worry particularly about the weapon bad habits?

And of course, they shouldn't have any bad habits at all if the instructors making the excuses are teaching them correctly, right :) ?

Best,

Chris

Erick Mead 03-14-2006 04:54 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Mary Kuhner wrote:
And a weapon attack when you are unarmed gives a "fear factor" which helps you learn to be calm under increasing pressure. Even a tanto tsuki elicits a much worse flinch than a bare-hand tsuki, and this lets you work on the flinching more easily.

No, no, -- by all means flinch. Natural reactions are not to be undone or overcome, but directed. Hold on to that instinctive reaction, for dear life -- your brain stem is much faster than your thinking brain.

Just turn it around. If you feel the pit of your stomach fall, then let your flinch happen, in fact, pile on -- into the direction of attack -- it's called irimi.

Cordially,
Erick Mead.

John (King John) 03-15-2006 06:43 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:
I would say just the opposite Mark, in fact I would say that the empty hand practice is not really empty hand practice, but in fact weapons technique.

In Aikido you really have no choice but to train weapons from the beginning, as weapons fighting is the only kind addressed in Aikido's traditional technical syllabus.

-Chris Hein

I agree with all of this. It most definitely does improve the body movement. Moving the arms but not the shoulders means moving from the centre, ie the pelvis. Tension in the arms is felt in the belly rather than the shoulders. Using your empty hands as if they were connected by the handle of a sword promotes the movement from your centre. Without this feeling the arms move independently and the tension is then felt in the shoulders. Try it, it's almost magical.

Gabriella Wrigholm 03-15-2006 07:38 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Since you're already discussing the subject if beginners should practice weapons or not, I'd like to ask what you teach your beginners once they do start. Is it only bokken and jo suburi, kata or maybe jo dori? In other words what do you think is best to start with?

Nick Simpson 03-15-2006 07:46 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
It tends to be bokken and jo suburi mainly at our dojo, but the 13 count kata was taught the other day for everyone in the class (which was mostly comprised of novices) and some jo waza, tachi dori, tanto dori is taught too. It just depends on who's teaching really.

Mark Freeman 03-15-2006 05:54 PM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Where I practice, the introduction to weapons training is staggered, tanto, bokken then jo, from 2nd kyu onwards.
I was very impatient to get to the weapons when I started, and I didn't understand why I had to wait. When I got there, I really appreciated the preparation I had gone through to get to that point.
IMHO weapons training should be treated with great respect. I'm not sure that a beginner in aikido has anywhere near enough understanding of the basic movements in aikido to do weapons training properly.
I watched a large gathering of different aikido groups last year and saw weapons in the hands of all grades, some of the weapons handling by the early kyu grades (tanto in this case ) was very sloppy. I can't say I was impressed, judgemental I know, but honest.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but I think beginners to aikido have enough to deal with just figuring out where their feet and hands are supposed to go, let alone being able to extend their mind to the tip of a bokken and cut with any real effectiveness.

So although it's frustrating in the beginning, I'm glad I had to wait. :)

regards,
Mark

Amir Krause 03-16-2006 07:17 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Quote:

Gabriella Wrigholm wrote:
Since you're already discussing the subject if beginners should practice weapons or not, I'd like to ask what you teach your beginners once they do start. Is it only boken and jo suburi, kata or maybe jo dori? In other words what do you think is best to start with?

We start with Jo, and start teaching suburi (hit to head, then feet then zuki). We then go on to teaching practical Jo exercises (reaction of Jo weilder to attack with another Jo) and only then move on to Jo Kata (Korindo first Jo Kata has 7 parts)& Jo Tai-Sabaki and in parallel - Jo Randori. At some point during this process, the boken practice will be added to, going in the same flow.
Later, at BB level, we also practice Jo Vs Ken (Mostly by attention to the Kata, but we have done some Randori in the pathis way too). But at this stage, the number of weapon sand traditions (Koryu Kata origins) is growing rapidly.

Quote:

IMHO weapons training should be treated with great respect. I'm not sure that a beginner in aikido has anywhere near enough understanding of the basic movements in aikido to do weapons training properly.
Those who teach weapons from the start, use the weapons practice to teach movement.
One can expect to be slopy and weird when holding a weapon he is not famlir with (unless one is famlier with a similar weapon).


Amir

roosvelt 03-16-2006 11:27 AM

Re: weapon training for lower ranks
 
Weapon as training tool as kata should be taught in day one if possible.

Defence against weapon isn't important for beginners.


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