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AikidoNate 07-08-2001 11:20 PM

Steven Seagal
 
I was wondering what perspectives people out there have of Steven Seagal. I ask this because he appears to be the only Hollywood representative of aikido, and I have read both bad things about him (violent prima-donna) and good things about him (compassionate healer). I don't want to create a forum for character assasination, but I would like to learn about a person before I designate him as a role-model or choose to endorse him, his movies or his products.

Kami 07-09-2001 04:32 AM

SSS
 
The only way you can definitely judge a man is by personal contact. If you are really interested in Steven Seagal, you should contact him, talk with him, watch his classes, listen from his students and make your opinion. All else is more or less hearsay.
IMHO

Jim23 07-09-2001 10:53 AM

Re: SSS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kami
The only way you can definitely judge a man is by personal contact. If you are really interested in Steven Seagal, you should contact him, talk with him, watch his classes, listen from his students and make your opinion. All else is more or less hearsay.
IMHO

I agree, however, my people are having trouble getting through to his people to arrange that lunch thing. Darn it. And now even Buffy isn't returning my calls. :D

Jim23

MikeE 07-09-2001 01:43 PM

I would have to disagree that Seagal Sensei is the only rep. for Aikido in the film world. I would agree he is the most recognized. Another example would be Toshishiro Obata (who was an Uchi-deshi of Gozo Shioda). He appeared in such "blockbusters" as Showdown in Little Tokyo with Brandon Lee and Dolph Lundgren.

Also, I agree that you should train with Seagal Sensei to get a feel for the type of person he is. I have had the honor of training with him a few times. I found him to be an exeptional instructor and fun to train with. He was also a pretty personable guy :)

giriasis 07-09-2001 01:56 PM

Re: SSS
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Kami
The only way you can definitely judge a man is by personal contact. If you are really interested in Steven Seagal, you should contact him, talk with him, watch his classes, listen from his students and make your opinion. All else is more or less hearsay.
IMHO

That is certainly true, but is Steven Seagal that accessible so she can make the most credible assessment of him?

She has to start somewhere. I also suggest asking on the Aikido-L list. Arn't there people on it with access to Mr. Seagal?

In regards to your final comment...

Hearsay is not necessarily bad. It depends on the context that it is being used. For example if an investigator is doing discovery for a case and if the hearsay will also lead the investigator to where they may find the credible information, it is not a bad thing. In legal terms, during the discovery (information finding/investigatory) process inadmissible evidence (such as hearsay) may be asked and received if it would lead to admissible evidence (non-hearsay aka from the horses mouth). But at trial, obviously the inadmissible evidence can not be used in the final decision. You obviously don't want someone's fate, whether it is a civil or criminal wrong, based on the word of what someone heard what someone else said.

So please don't discredit her question right away. But warning of the pit falls before making that final judgment is not a bad idea.

In this case should she endorse S. Seagal or not? Obvsiously her decision would be faulty if she based it on the opinions of others who don't know him, it would be less faulty if based on the opinons of people who do know him, and it would be credible if she actually had the chance to meet him.

Anne Marie "who always finds a typo after she posts" Giri

jfearon 07-09-2001 03:58 PM

Does any body know if Seagal will be comeing to england to do a seminar, or anywhere I could find out? :-)

Frank Alberta 07-09-2001 05:25 PM

I really dont know if I would be happy being famous. I would have to subject my family and self to this sort of thing every day.

Steven Seagal Shihan has proven time and time again that his part in this whole thing is to promote peace and Aikido as O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba had done. NEVER have you heard about Seagal Sensei being arrested or even suspected in any brawls or problems. Other than People magazine ( a shit rag ) as Sensei Seagal has stated. Acused him of such behavor and NEVER proved it.

Want to know more about Steven Seagal Shihan and his way?

Go To WWW.stevenseagal.com and read the site and order the tape he has out. I am in no way doing a commercial but if you really want to know, this is how to know as much as you can as Steven Seagal Shihan is unreachable unless you train under him through www.makotodojo.com Makoto Dojo in Ventura Ca. or Ten Shin Taos Kihon Dojo In NM.
and test for Dan ranking at his house.

Respectfully,

guest1234 07-09-2001 05:31 PM

Anne Marie,

I agree 100% with Ubaldo: if we rely on what others say about a person to form an opinion, or even start to form an opinion, then not only is that not very Aiki in my book, but we might as well believe everything anonymous's ex-sensei said about her after they didn't have a relationship...in other words, it's name is actually gossip, and it should never be what we use to judge a person.
It is not Segal Sensei's place to be accessible, any more than any other famous sensei, or famous person, or person period. If it is important to him to gain her endorsement, then I am sure he will make himself available. In his case, he is not only a famous sensei, he is also a movie star, and there is just not enough of him to be always accessible to everyone who wants to meet him. Although Jim, I'm sure his people ARE trying to get through ;).
I am fortunate enough to have had favors granted to me from three of O Sensei's direct students, two of whom arranged the favor via others (uchideshi, wife) which was totally fine with me---they were obviously busy, and that WITHOUT the movie star obligations.
Unless we are in a position to study under them, or within their organizations, I don't see that there is a lot of need for us to judge any of the 'names' in Aikido. If you can study under them, then check them out, let them check you out, and go from there. If not, then it really doesn't matter to them or to you what you think of them, does it?

Jim23 07-09-2001 08:32 PM

Colleen, Ubaldo and others.

I agree also, that we should form our veiws and opinions based on personal experiences, not on hearsay. Therefore, most of us should have NO opinion as we probably will never ever meet, or train with, Mr. Seagal (views from others who have are meaningless, as they are others' views and not our own).

Frank, "Go To WWW.stevenseagal.com and read the site and order the tape he has out ... if you really want to know, this is how to know as much as you can ..."

Yeah, right. Let him tell us.

Ever heard of the expression "figjam man"? ... "F**k I'm great, just ask me".

Jim23

Frank Alberta 07-09-2001 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim23
Colleen, Ubaldo and others.

Frank, "Go To WWW.stevenseagal.com and read the site and order the tape he has out ... if you really want to know, this is how to know as much as you can ..."

Yeah, right. Let him tell us.

Ever heard of the expression "figjam man"? ... "F**k I'm great, just ask me".

Jim23

Hi again,

I can honestly say that it seems several of you are unhappy or even mad with a man you have never met. A simple question was asked if you read the origional beginning of the thread of how to learn more about Steven Seagal.

I also would like to point out the (tape) I mentioned has very little of Seagal Sensei speaking at all. It is of his students and reflects just about every concern you all have in this thread. If you were to believe it was staged then you need not to have a discussion as your minds are allready made up.

Jim,
As far as Figjam is concerned, you may keep that little ditty for yourself. And why are your posts so anonoymous?

Erik 07-09-2001 10:20 PM

www.stevenseagal.com
 
All things considered there isn't much there about the man.

Amazing that he can generate such discussion time and time and time again. Is he even still teaching Aikido?

PeterR 07-09-2001 11:45 PM

All you have to do his hit Jim23s profile to know who he is.

Just a comment on first and second hand info. We all make judgements on people we never meet. Just look at the number of people fawning on Ueshiba M. who absolutely refuse to believe he had any faults or peers of equal caliber. Did they meet him?

If I talk with someone who was at the France fiasco, and I have, then I doubt I will spend the money or time necessary to see Seagal. We make our choices on the information we have.

His ex-wife's dojo is just a few stops down the Hankyu line from my work.


Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Alberta
I can honestly say that it seems several of you are unhappy or even mad with a man you have never met. A simple question was asked if you read the origional beginning of the thread of how to learn more about Steven Seagal.

I also would like to point out the (tape) I mentioned has very little of Seagal Sensei speaking at all. It is of his students and reflects just about every concern you all have in this thread. If you were to believe it was staged then you need not to have a discussion as your minds are allready made up.

Jim,
As far as Figjam is concerned, you may keep that little ditty for yourself. And why are your posts so anonoymous?


giriasis 07-10-2001 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ca
Anne Marie,

I agree 100% with Ubaldo: if we rely on what others say about a person to form an opinion, or even start to form an opinion, then not only is that not very Aiki in my book,...
What is "Aiki" to one person is not "Aiki" to another. Obviously we differ in opinion. I think Nate is intelligent enough to filter out the facts from opinions from people who know Segal Sensei. I think Nate is also intelligent enough not to rely on people's opinions who don't even know Segal sensei. Nate, Jim23, myself and others are not 8 year olds that you have to play the "telephone game" with to teach us about the problems of starting rumors.


Quote:

It is not Segal Sensei's place to be accessible, any more than any other famous sensei, or famous person, or person period. If it is important to him to gain her endorsement, then I am sure he will make himself available. In his case, he is not only a famous sensei, he is also a movie star, and there is just not enough of him to be always accessible to everyone who wants to meet him....
Re-read my first sentence, that was my point. Segal Sensei is not accessible to the general public, and I did not say he had to be. Sensei like Kanai or Yamada are accessible in that we can at least go to seminars with them and can at least visit their dojos and take classes with them. Is Segal Sensei that accessible? I don't think so.

The next best option is to actually talk to his people. And the best option after that is do as suggested and get his video. Unless he is writing a story about him in a newspaper or other similar media then he is free to make his decision on the best possible information available, even if it is second hand. It is up to the individual listener to determine whether or not it is credible information. He is not trying to take Segal Sensei to court so crying "hearsay" is just an easy out to answering a simple question.

Quote:

I am fortunate enough to have had favors granted to me from three of O Sensei's direct students, two of whom arranged the favor via others (uchideshi, wife) which was totally fine with me---they were obviously busy, and that WITHOUT the movie star obligations. Unless we are in a position to study under them, or within their organizations, I don't see that there is a lot of need for us to judge any of the 'names' in Aikido.
However the difference from these sensei and Segal Sensei is that Segal Sensei puts himself out as public figure as an actor. And he also puts himself out as an actor who does aikido. That is just due to the nature of his profession -- acting and doing aikido moves in his films. Segal Sensei will by the nature of his profession be under much more scrutiny than any other Sensei simply because more people know who he is, and know he practices aikido. I am sure he is aware of this as well, and is aware that people who don't know him would like to know about his aikido ability. And people who have heard the rumors would like to hear them dispelled as well, which is what Nate wants to do.

What I think Nate is doing is actually very responsible. He is coming to a well known aikido forum and asking for information about a very public aikido figure. Because it is well known he is bound to hear from people who know Segal Sensei. He is choosing to NOT jump to conclusions by asking questions as to how to go about making an informed decision.

Anyhow, I don't think Nate even wants to run Segal Sensei's or any sensei's name through the mud. (And when other folks talked about their individual personal experience with another anonymous sensei -- it was anonymous. No one knew the names and so there could have been no name dragging.) He specifically stated, "I don't want to create a forum for character assination". It sounds like Nate clearly doesn't want to start rumors, hear rumors, but wants good decent information so he can make an informed decision.


Frank,

I have no problems with Segal Sensei. I just can't stand it when only people say "you have to meet him" to make a decision. I am sure there are people like yourself who are out there who can answer a simple enough question. I am responding to a standard "blow off" diversion type response that hopes people will stop asking questions about controversial issues. They won't and they might as well allow people to make informed decisions otherwise the worst will come true and the rumors will spread.

These people's opinions though mean that your view and the video you suggest are worthless. Because in their view the only informed view is hands on experience. So that means Nate would have to train with Segal sensei at one of his dojos with his students. That is the best choice. But the problem is that that best choice can not be exercised so Nate will never have an informed decision. So they rather not have Nate ask the question in the first place.

I disagree because I feel there are good alternatives. I believe that there are folks out there who can offer a rather reasonable and educated view and Nate is intelligent enough to decide whether it is credible enough information to base an informed decision on.

Well, I can go one.

Later,
Anne Marie

Jim23 07-10-2001 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by giriasis

Nate, Jim23, myself and others are not 8 year olds that you have to play the "telephone game" with to teach us about the problems of starting rumors.

And what, may I ask, is wrong with that game? ;)

I think Nate and Frank are probably nice guys who mean no harm. Besides, we all have the right to voice our opinions, regardless of what they are.

No one's ever always right or wrong here anyway, and posts are so easily misunderstood.

Understand?

Jim23

Frank Alberta 07-10-2001 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by giriasis




Frank,

I have no problems with Segal Sensei. I just can't stand it when only people say "you have to meet him" to make a decision. I am sure there are people like yourself who are out there who can answer a simple enough question. I am responding to a standard "blow off" diversion type response that hopes people will stop asking questions about controversial issues. They won't and they might as well allow people to make informed decisions otherwise the worst will come true and the rumors will spread.

These people's opinions though mean that your view and the video you suggest are worthless. Because in their view the only informed view is hands on experience. So that means Nate would have to train with Segal sensei at one of his dojos with his students. That is the best choice. But the problem is that that best choice can not be exercised so Nate will never have an informed decision. So they rather not have Nate ask the question in the first place.

I disagree because I feel there are good alternatives. I believe that there are folks out there who can offer a rather reasonable and educated view and Nate is intelligent enough to decide whether it is credible enough information to base an informed decision on.

Well, I can go one.

Later,
Anne Marie


I absolutely meant no argument or conflict by posting here. I only stated what I thought were several options and my experiance. As a matter of fact I gave the exact two answers you provided above yet I I was seemingly told by several of the posts that my view was wrong or worthless.

I do apologise if I got my back up a little but I really did not expect that here.

Think about this. Does this really matter that much to you? It absolutely does NOT to me.

"Teach with every word. Love with every action. Care with every moment"

What really matters

Erik 07-11-2001 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Frank Alberta
I absolutely meant no argument or conflict by posting here. I only stated what I thought were several options and my experiance. As a matter of fact I gave the exact two answers you provided above yet I I was seemingly told by several of the posts that my view was wrong or worthless.

I do apologise if I got my back up a little but I really did not expect that here.

Think about this. Does this really matter that much to you? It absolutely does NOT to me.

"Teach with every word. Love with every action. Care with every moment"

What really matters
Hi Frank.

Don't sweat it. We all get carried away from time to time. Myself probably more than most. I like it acually because at least people are bringing themselves to the table and not the someone they think they should be.

Erik, who is wondering where that voice of reason is coming from.


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