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-   -   Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9809)

AikiWeb System 02-12-2006 12:30 AM

Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of February 12, 2006:

For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
  • I don't do aikido
  • We don't do tenchinage
  • I don't know tenchinage
  • Forward fall/roll
  • Back fall/roll
Here are the current results.

Mark Gibbons 02-12-2006 12:50 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
I voted for back fall but, I personally will do a forward roll depending on how tired my knees are. The back fall takes up less room on a crowded mat and is easier to teach to beginners.

Mark

xuzen 02-12-2006 02:34 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
I voted for back fall (koho ukemi). I was never taught any other fall of this technique other than koho ukemi.

Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.

<Boon scratches head in confusion>

Jerry Miller 02-12-2006 03:25 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more
 
Aren't we all confused sometimes Boon? :D

Mark Uttech 02-12-2006 04:45 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
wow! that was the easiest poll yet! The back fall or the forward roll on this technique really put your ego on the line!

seank 02-12-2006 05:30 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.

Not sure how everyone else does it but our version of mae ukemi from tenchinage is to look over the shoulder you intend to roll over and turn your body with the throw... a lot of times its neater, but it does take commitment to the roll and a bit more experience.

Michael Meister 02-12-2006 06:03 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
The question is, what do you consider a basic tenchi nage. At the beginning I practised tenchi nage with ushiro ukemi, but to allow uke to do this, you have to open the technique befor the throw. With more experienced ukes its mae ukemi, or a forward breakfall.
Basically we refer to this ukemi as a forward-backward roll.

Amelia Smith 02-12-2006 08:39 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Backfall or breakfall. When someone forward rolls out of it, I feel like they're cheating out of the technique, although I guess the breakfall is more of a forward breakfall than a backward one.

aikidoc 02-12-2006 09:12 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Whatever is safe.

j0nharris 02-12-2006 11:25 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more
 
We see a majority of backfalls in our dojo from the kihon type throw. What is interesting, though, is how many newer students ask if their fall should begin/use their inside leg or their outside leg... .
I find that I will often pivot over the outside leg at nominal speed, but if the throw is coming hard & fast I will usually pivot over the right leg, no matter which side the technique is on. sometimes resulting in nage getting a nice whack on the instep if they're not out of the way when I hit the mat - :blush: - for which I always apologize.
I encourage new students to try back/side falls over each leg to see which side feels more natural to them.
Like many things on the mat, everyone is a little different as to what will work best for their bodies.

Sonja2012 02-12-2006 11:28 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more
 
Whatever you are being thrown into?!

Just the other day I attended a seminar in which the teacher threw uke tenchinage. Uke took a forward roll out of it. Teacher says: "No, donīt do that, take a backwards roll!" He tries again and uke - again - takes a forward roll. He clearly had no other option! The teacher told him off again and I was thinking how stupid that was. Shouldnīt ukemi be something one takes in order to be safe and shouldnīt it be a natural reaction to ukeīs balance being broken? Therefore I feel that the type of fall I take is not so much my own choice. Of course if the technique is done softly or done by someone with less experience then I have more choice, and I have seen and done both forward and backwards rolls off it. The same would count for any other technique, I should think.

Edwin Neal 02-12-2006 11:39 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
if uke can take a forward roll it indicates IMHO that nage is allowing it and thus not completely controlling uke throughout the entire technique... if nage controls the head properly during this throw, then nage should not be able to turn their head for the forward roll...

Amelia Smith 02-12-2006 01:04 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
True, uke should not be able to take a forward roll if tenchinage is being done properly, but if uke lets go with the lower hand early on and edges away (not good ukemi IMO), they can usually roll out. Some ukes will go to great lengths to take whatever kind of fall they have in mind before the actual throw.

Karen Wolek 02-12-2006 01:59 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
I've taken backfalls, backrolls, forward rolls, and breakfalls from tenchinage. I don't think any one is more appropriate than the others. I just do whatever feels right at the moment.

Backfalls are usually best, because they are safer on a crowded mat.

seank 02-12-2006 02:24 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Quote:

Amelia Smith wrote:
True, uke should not be able to take a forward roll if tenchinage is being done properly, but if uke lets go with the lower hand early on and edges away (not good ukemi IMO), they can usually roll out.

What about in the instance that nage takes the leading hand very low to the mat, and further behind ukes body than the other hand; in naturally twists uke and puts them very close body-wise to a forward roll.

Not a setup per se, but its not ncessarily poor technique on behalf of nage either...

Don_Modesto 02-12-2006 02:31 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Quote:

Mark Gibbons wrote:
I voted for back fall but, I personally will do a forward roll depending on how tired my knees are. The back fall takes up less room on a crowded mat and is easier to teach to beginners.

Yes, me, too.

But it's not always a matter of choice. Well, done, TN can launch you. With beginners, I do the back roll because they're still fretting over where the foot goes and I wait for their technique to catch up with my attack. More advance players just take your momentum and you fly.

sullivanw 02-12-2006 03:28 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Hi all,

I voted for a back fall because that's what I have been shown, and the majority of ukemi for tenchi nage (basic) at my dojo is just that. However, as I have been learning to keep a better connection I have been tending toward a forward roll or breakfall on tenchinage ura...
I love this stuff... there's always more to learn or another perspective to appreciate!

-Will

Peter Goldsbury 02-12-2006 06:32 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
I voted for back fall (koho ukemi). I was never taught any other fall of this technique other than koho ukemi.

Just out of curiosity... how does one do mae ukemi for this throw? I am baffled.

<Boon scratches head in confusion>

I think this has been discussed before in ukemi threads, for I remember explaining somewhere how I do a 'forward' roll backwards and without turning the head. This is not the same as a 'clothesline' ukemi, by the way.

Best regards,

Don 02-12-2006 06:40 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Beginers: universally take backfalls, since the throw takes them backwards, they don't conceive of moving their bodies except to step backwards out of the throw, and its done slowly with them.

Advanced players: whatever is there and is safe. There is a way to do a roll out of this that does not involve turning into the earth hand. Uke simply (ha ha) follows the earth hand downward. He influences his balance break to be toward the earth hand, but doesn't turn into it. He simply (ha ha) executes a forward roll from a backward position. Its really fun to do and very pretty at demos. It also is necessary if someone throws you quickly and with good connection. Its all you really have time to do unless you want to get your head bonked.

xuzen 02-12-2006 09:52 PM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Quote:

Peter A Goldsbury wrote:
I think this has been discussed before in ukemi threads, for I remember explaining somewhere how I do a 'forward' roll backwards and without turning the head. This is not the same as a 'clothesline' ukemi, by the way.

Best regards,

Since the thread is about the basic tenchi-nage, please allow me to revisit this basic technique.

Assuming this is from both hand grab (ryote mochi tenchi-nage). Simultaneously move one hand 45 degree outwards, breaking the balance at the knee of uke. The other hand is raised upwards to strike the face of uke. Please note your wrist is resting on top of the uke's wrist (uke's wrist should be shielding his face from your strike). This also prevent uke's holding arm from letting go. This raised arm is also intended as a strike to further cause kuzushi.

A good outcome, you should get uke resting his weight entirely on one leg and the other leg is at tip toe. At this moment in time, uke is probably arched backwards, with his head behind his center of gravity. The proceed with tsugi ashi (sliding) movement at a 45 degree angle across his arched back. Please note, as you slide, your hip is connected to the hip of uke.

Using the power of your tsugi ashi movement plus hip power throw uke. For the Yoshinkan people, the movement is similar to our Shumatsu dosa ichi (1) movement.

I hope my description is vivid enough for all readers to form a mental picture. My question is such that with uke broken balance this way, I just cannot fathom any other method of ukemi other than back fall.

Yours truly,
Boon.

PeterR 02-13-2006 12:27 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
I share Boon's difficulty.

After the initial two handed kuzushi there is a definite attacking the body component to the throw. Very little room for uke to turn and throw themselves into any sort of forward role at least during the contact phase.

Pretty hard to follow the earth hand down when there is a body inconveniently in the way.

grondahl 02-13-2006 01:01 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
backfall, not backroll. More "breakfall-like"

For some of the ki no nagare versions a forward breakfall comes quite naturally though.

PeterR 02-13-2006 03:12 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more
 
Backroll has its problems too. Tori is moving forward quite rapidly and will pretty much be on top of you the whole time. A backroll puts you in a much weaker position for a good chunk of time. Best have a pair of legs between you and nage than an exposed back.

Peter Goldsbury 02-13-2006 03:44 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more appropriate?
 
Reading Boon's post and Peter Rehse's post leads me to wonder whether Yoshinkan or Shodokan teach the 'backward' mae-ukemi. I learned it from Minoru Kanetsuka Sensei, who has a Yoshinkan background, before I came to Japan.

For Iwama people, the ukemi I have in mind used to be done brilliantly by Bruce Klickstein and I think it is still done brilliantly by Pat Hendricks. In one of Saito Sensei's last appearances at the All-Japan demonstration in May, Pat was Saito Sensei's uchi-tachi and did precisely the ukemi I am thinking of, while holding a bokken with both hands. (NB. As with the 'clothesline' ukemi, the secret is in the feet!).

Best wishes,

PeterR 02-13-2006 04:09 AM

Re: Poll: For the basic version of tenchinage, what kind of fall do you think is more
 
Hi Peter;

Several of our kata require a backward mae ukemi. Within the junanahon sumiotoshi comes to mind; withing the koryu goshin no kata there is a tachi dori tenkai kotegaishi (shihonage) which requires it. I think Yoshinkan's kihon shihonage requires it. Of course I could be misunderstanding what you are referring to but my question seems to revolve more around how tenchi-nage is performed rather than the ukemi itself.


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