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-   -   there is no room for a pass into shodan (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9794)

justinmaceachern 02-09-2006 08:58 AM

there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
I just wanted your guys opinions, so here is my question;
I you were a 1st kyu and had gone for a black belt test but failed, (because of an injury you were forced to quit even though you passed the physical) then later the next year hurt your self Before your retesting, should the instructor be able to give that a person a bi
just becase we all know he can do technique.

Jerry Miller 02-09-2006 09:10 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
I have seen people for whatever reason not make it on there first go around on a Dan test. The retest us usually only on the material not up to snuff. This is at the testers discretion of course. They can ask to see anything which caused one failure that I know of.

justinmaceachern 02-09-2006 09:24 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
I dissagree with you. if you failed, then you fail. you cant be given a bi just because your hurt. this person failed his test due to a pre exsisting injury. if it was bad enough to quit the test then he should have made a concience decision before to postpone the test. So now we should give him shodan because he has a nother injury. the injury he has prevents him from falling not technique. he seems to do technique fine enough. woldnt it make more sense to still test on nage and not ukemi. The instructor which i still respect says we could take the marks he would of had on hie preivious and apply it to his new test. Again his mark on his previous test is a FAIL.
So what is fair? I think he should be tested on some of the nauge. we all know he can fall and to get a pass on ukemi but still perform as the nauge is acceptible in my pinion.

Edwin Neal 02-09-2006 11:23 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
this is why testing should not be a pass/fail event... it should be potponed until the injury is healed..

Aristeia 02-09-2006 11:46 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Testing is a tool for the sensei. And he may be using that tool for different purposes - to apply pressure, to see the technique of students he doesn't have contact with, even as a formal demo for students to show skills he knows they have - a ceremony if you like.
As it is a tool for the sensei, he can of course pass or fail for any reason he wants. I suspect he's using testing for a different purpose than you think. If he's happy the guy is a shodan, a shodan he is.

Aiki LV 02-09-2006 12:27 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
IMHO, if someone keeps repeatedly getting injured there is something wrong. Granted injuries happen, but if this happened to me on a regular basis I'd take a serious look at what I was doing and how I'm practicing. As far as the testing question goes it is up to the Sensei/s conducting the test.

Lyle Bogin 02-09-2006 02:20 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Universities waive exams. Sensei types can do the same...

Mark Uttech 02-09-2006 02:37 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Testing is generally on both, ukemi, and being nage. The two are what make aikido aikido.

Edwin Neal 02-09-2006 04:15 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Mark that is very odd and not my experience at all... there is no 'ukemi' techniques on the testing criteria that i have seen for several dojos... do you have an uke? is usually the only question with any connection to ukemi...

Qatana 02-09-2006 05:33 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
It says right there on the testing requirements for the organisation my dojo belongs to: "ukemi appropriate for rank"
Sometimes this is an extended "test" lasting several weeks prior to the actual test, when sensei uses the specific candidates for specific ukemi. Sometimes we have to demonstrate for the testing panel.
However our organisation also allows for "adaptive" aikido for people with chronic injuries or disabilities.At least the dojo's I train at regularly.
And if my sensei or shihan decides to promote without testing, or repeatedly fail a candidate for whatever reason, it is their prerogative.Never seen it happen but I haven't been training very long, either.

raul rodrigo 02-09-2006 06:05 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Quote:

Jo Adell wrote:
And if my sensei or shihan decides to promote without testing, or repeatedly fail a candidate for whatever reason, it is their prerogative.

I've seen it happen. My shihan promoted one of us to shodan without an exam. One of our guys, then ikkyu, spent six weeks with the shihan in Japan. Upon his leaving, he was told he was now shodan. A seventh dan can do what he wants, at least as far as ranking his students is concerned.


R

rtist 02-09-2006 08:03 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
If one is studying aikido to get a belt of whatever color, then they are studying aikido for the wrong reason. The belt ranks are merely a generalized yardstick of capability and even that varies widely.
Train to learn aikido. The rest will come.
As far as ukemi goes - if you can't demonstrate proper ukemi for a technique, then you do not know that technique very well at all.

Edwin Neal 02-09-2006 08:12 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
i may not understand what people are trying to say, but i have never had to demonstrate ukemi for a test... ikkyo nikkyo etc, but never ukemi... is that really something that you have to 'do' for your test???

rtist 02-09-2006 08:29 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Quote:

Edwin Neal wrote:
i may not understand what people are trying to say, but i have never had to demonstrate ukemi for a test... ikkyo nikkyo etc, but never ukemi... is that really something that you have to 'do' for your test???

Every time I have tested I have been asked at some point to take ukemi for a technique (usually one where I was just nage). I cannot speak for my sensei or the others observing, but I assume it was to show my understanding of the dynamics of the technique as a whole.

Edwin Neal 02-09-2006 08:34 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
i never have... just seems kind of different...

Mark Uttech 02-09-2006 09:15 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Look at it this way, being uke is what you do in class half the time, so it is something to think about.

Edwin Neal 02-09-2006 09:23 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
nothing wrong with doing ukemi, but i don't really see the point of it being on a test like ikkyo or nikkyo... that being said i'm an uke slut i love being uke for someones test... and i realize that ukemi has a deep way of helping you refine you waza, but i think being asked to demonstrate a forward roll for a test is like asking them to spell aikido... so basic it needs no demonstration...

akiy 02-09-2006 10:59 PM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Ukemi encompasses far more than falling skills. As such, I am still actively working very much on becoming a better uke.

When there are exams where I train, the people who are testing are expected to get up and take ukemi at some point during the evening for other examinees so that the person(s) conducting the exams can witness their ukemi skills. During the last round of exams, I gave some feedback on ukemi.

-- Jun

justinmaceachern 02-10-2006 05:05 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
couple of coments first. Please donot compair University exams with an Aikido testing. Thats just not right.
secondly if you are not required to ukemi in your testing i am sory to say ( i will probably get in trouble for this) you are in the wrong class. I started this thread because it realy bugs me to see people handed things. I had a test where i did not feel the instructor correctly tested me and didnt feel like i deserved the kyu. i had to go esle where to get the satisfaction i needed.

justinmaceachern 02-10-2006 05:07 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Edwin the reason why ikkyo and nykkyo are so imortant is because in time you will realize that you can perform ikkyo and nykkyo from any situation. Further if you cant perform ukemi you wont achieve shodan, just be handed it.

Edwin Neal 02-10-2006 05:51 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
i agree with you Justin that some dojo's have woefully slack testing/ranking procedures... if you can't perform ukemi you won't ever test for even the lowest kyu... as i see ukemi as a sort of prerequisite... until you can "do" it, even at a basic level, you really can't start to study aikido... but by the time you are to be tested for shodan it should be something that you have demonstrated that you know, although like all things we continue to improve and find new applications for our ukemi... when asked to test for your english class the teacher doesn't test to see if you can read and write... that is simply understood...

Mark Uttech 02-10-2006 09:48 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Has anyone ever heard that in some of the old traditional dojos the sensei taught by taking ukemi from his students? So he taught the students how to "take "ukemi and study by feeling how the techniques work.

Ron Tisdale 02-10-2006 10:15 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Ukemi (by yourself and with a partner) is part of our testing at the Doshinkan. The syllabus posted at the Yoshinkan hombu website does not include ukemi, and I'm not sure what other schools do. At the Doshinkan the ukemi tested on during kyu ranks corresponds roughly with the ukemi required for the waza on the test.

Best,
Ron

makuchg 02-10-2006 10:16 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Mark, There are pictures and some old 8mm video of O'Sensei taking ukemi in a children's class. Very impressive and very selfless.

akiy 02-10-2006 10:43 AM

Re: there is no room for a pass into shodan
 
Quote:

Edwin Neal wrote:
when asked to test for your english class the teacher doesn't test to see if you can read and write...

In the upper division English literarature courses I took while in college, I'd say that the question wasn't whether I could read and write but how I could read and write. A first grader can probably sight read the words that Blake wrote, but it takes far more than that to be able to explicate it.

The same applies to ukemi. In my experience, at least, taking ukemi from kyu ranked people is far different from taking ukemi from shihan. This and my thoughts that there is no difference between uke and nage keep me working on my ukemi abilities, day after day and year after year. And, once again, by ukemi, I am referring to far more than just the falling skills (which I would say comprises perhaps 10% of what I consider to be "ukemi").

Your mileage may vary.

-- Jun


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