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-   -   Did Aikido fail you in "real life"? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9728)

LvB 01-30-2006 03:04 PM

Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
All the "does aikido really work" - threads are pointless:
people without evidence claiming that aikido doesn't work in "real life" self defence; then some dude will tell a segal-like story of how he whipped someone's ass with flawless aikido techniques, and saved his friends life, and so forth.

Now, this thread is for anonymous confessions:

Did you ever try to defend yourself (or someone else) with an aikido technique in real life AND IT FAILED??? :blush:

Please confess...

Adam Alexander 02-14-2006 01:18 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
That's impossible. Aikido doesn't fail, the Aikidoka only fails to apply the right technique.

Mark Uttech 02-14-2006 02:14 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
The answer to that question doesn't matter, so maybe the question doesn't matter either...

Aristeia 02-14-2006 02:29 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
heaven forbid we discuss the possibility of Aikido not working like it does in the movies. Of course the question matters. We learn more from failure than we do from success. So by anlalysing, as a community instances of failure we can maybe draw some interesting conclusions about how we are training etc etc.

But let's not do that because it may threaten the perception we have of aikido and ourselves.

How about we change the question to "Did your Aikido training fail you in real life". Surely even Jean must concede that's a possability.

seank 02-14-2006 03:12 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Johan UllÚn wrote:
Did you ever try to defend yourself (or someone else) with an aikido technique in real life AND IT FAILED???

Once only (so far - and touch wood) and it worked perfectly fine. The two people turned and ran without anyone being hit and without any contact being made.

Would this be an example of victory without contention? I'm sure it could have gone quite differently had things escalated. My Aikido technique was to avoid fighting; it seemed to work very effectively.

Nick Simpson 02-15-2006 04:41 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Not yet...

Dirk Hanss 02-15-2006 06:42 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Whenever i tried to apply aiki(do) techniques, they at least did not work easily or even failed, as I was really focussed on doing one special technique - ("which one is the best for this situation? Why can't i get the wrist for kote gaeshi?") and every aikidoka can tell you why it could not work. (all the three times ;) )

But I had situations, in which I just instinctly acted and it worked well. I even had a moment, when I thought, I knew exactly what happened all around me, even in my back. Everything seemed to happen in slow motion and even though I did not do any technique, just diving below his arm and tenkan, my opponent could not even touch me.
Well the main reason might be that he was drunk, but the feeling was great.

So I know aikido works, even if for me the best proofs had been my ukemi in bicycle and roller blade accidents. But even there, especially on my first snowboard classes I thought, my ukemi should have worked better.


Dirk

ian 02-15-2006 07:11 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
I suppose if you mean, was it anything like aikido in the dojo I would have to say it failed me every time. However the basics of aikido (body movement, responsiveness, instantaneous reactions, entering) all came out during attack situations. (that's not to say that the techniques are not there in one form or another). One time it was a bit of a mutliple attack and I didn't move as much as I'd have liked to, but every confrontation I've had I thank aikido for keeping both me and the attacker pretty intact by the end of it. I'm sure countless confrontations have also been avoided from the correct mental attitude (not aggressive, but not passive) which aikido seems to help develop.

This is partly why I have the signature (below). I think it is a fallacy to think that you will think 'now I will do a lovely shiho-nage' in a confrontation. We are just developing useful reactions and responses and the techniques and training is a method of doing that. I think the use of single, directed attacks used in aikido has an enormous advantage over sparring simulations in developing a response to sudden attacks.

Edwin Neal 02-15-2006 07:23 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
learning to flow from technique to technique and blend with your attacker is a level of 'spontaneity' that does take some time to develop, but if you think you will just "do an aikido technique (one)" and its all over then you may want to think again... always have a plan b, c, d, etc ad infinitum... even in the successful situations i have had it rarely came down to just one technique... there was some amount of set up involved... when an attacker resists one technique it naturally provides openings and opportunities to apply other techniques... go with the flow, and don't get hit is my motto...

Simone 02-15-2006 08:12 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
When I read the title I spontaneously thought to answer. When I read the original post I thought I can't answer because I've never been in a situation where I had to defend myself. On the other hand, Aikido or as Michael suggest my Aikido training didn't fail my up to today. Even today in the morning when I fell of my bike (due to an icy road) my ukemi was good enough to not get hurt (not even a bruise). It may not be what you wanted to hear, Johan, but nevertheless I thought it's worthwile to note that for me the ukemi side in real live is more important.

Simone

Adam Alexander 02-15-2006 12:26 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
heaven forbid we discuss the possibility of Aikido not working like it does in the movies. Of course the question matters. We learn more from failure than we do from success. So by anlalysing, as a community instances of failure we can maybe draw some interesting conclusions about how we are training etc etc.

But let's not do that because it may threaten the perception we have of aikido and ourselves.

How about we change the question to "Did your Aikido training fail you in real life". Surely even Jean must concede that's a possability.

Ah, Mr. Fooks,

It's a shame that the last exchange we had yielded you no apparent gain in interpersonal skills...atleast as they relate to me.

How is it that you write two sarcasm laden, sophisticated paragraphs about why we should question Aikido...and then change the question!?!...And then, suggest that I'd be conceding by agreeing?

LOL. Come on.

Did training fail? That's a significant question. I've always said that. So, do I concede? No...I agree with it anyway.

Look over the responses to the post. Apparently, most people get it...it's a failure of the artist, not the art.


BTW: About Aikido working like it does in the movies, sure it would, if it were the same attack as the movie. People who "get" the techniques understand that.

Adam Alexander 02-15-2006 12:43 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Look over the responses to the post. Apparently, most people get it...

I take this part back. One or two posts stood out, then I reread. I don't know if "most people" feel the same way.


BTW, I did make it into a JJ (emphasis on ground) studio.

The guys larger than me, when they were able to take me down (twice) kept me down pretty easy once on top of me. However, they couldn't get any pins because of the sensitivity developed from Aikido.

I took them down more than they took me (then I got tired as can be...and that's when they took me down.)

The guys my size and smaller (three dans) couldn't take me down. Once down, they could, at best, only call it a stalemate.

I didn't have the pins for it. However, the pins are in Aikido (I just spend my time working on other stuff).

Being that I've never done any serious ground work, I'd say that it was something of a triumph for me as far goes my Aikido.

It's the artist, not the art.


I did confirm something from the trips: Aikido does have all the same stuff. It's just on the ground.

I will, however, concede one thing that's been on my mind since the conversation: If you want to learn ground faster, go to a ground school.

Ron Tisdale 02-15-2006 01:25 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Sounds like you had a good and informative time Jean. Congrats!
Best,
Ron

Dirk Hanss 02-16-2006 02:36 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Apologies,
I did reread the thread and now I have to add, that when I failed to apply aikido techniques, I was not in a defense situation, but more in an "enforce" situation. And even if I still believe there is no clear distinction between defense and attack, our training usually focusses more in react on direct aggression to myself. Defending others or enforcing something is an issue, but not part of daily training - on my level in my dojo.
LEO's etc. have to develop other skills, of course.


Dirk

Dajo251 02-16-2006 07:33 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
I haven never used a full aikido technique out of the dojo, well unless yu count doing nikkyo on my friends cuz they dont believe aikido can be painful, but using aikido priciples I have avoided quite a few punchs

Aristeia 02-16-2006 10:28 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Jean de Rochefort wrote:
Ah, Mr. Fooks,

It's a shame that the last exchange we had yielded you no apparent gain in interpersonal skills...atleast as they relate to me.

What can I tell you, it bugs me when someone asks a question that should yield interesting results and gets stonewalled
Quote:

How is it that you write two sarcasm laden, sophisticated paragraphs about why we should question Aikido...and then change the question!?!...And then, suggest that I'd be conceding by agreeing?
You seem to think the purpose of my post was to "get you to concede". Actually it was to reframe the question in a way that most sensible people would have read it in the frst place to see if there was any useful discussion to be had.
Quote:


Look over the responses to the post. Apparently, most people get it...it's a failure of the artist, not the art.
.
because even if the vast majority of practioners of an art exhibit common problems, that are not found by the vast majority of practioners of certain other arts, that has nothing to do with the art itself.

Let's not rehash that.

Aristeia 02-16-2006 10:30 AM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Jean de Rochefort wrote:

BTW, I did make it into a JJ (emphasis on ground) studio.

Well done, that's a great first step. I suggest to try the experiment again, but this time instead of going to a JJ (emphasis on ground) school, seek out a BJJ school.

Adam Alexander 02-16-2006 04:25 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
What can I tell you, it bugs me when someone asks a question that should yield interesting results and gets stonewalled.

Ah, so you figure two wrongs make a right?

However, I'd say that you make a good point. I could of explained the 'why' of my position rather than simply answering the question.


Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
You seem to think the purpose of my post was to "get you to concede"...

No, not really. I don't think the reason for your post was simply to get me to concede. I think the point was to bring light to the idea that good can come from a discussion that some might consider similar to the discussion that was solicited.

However, I can't grasp why'd you even mention me in your post if my concession didn't matter to you. Either way, it doesn't really matter that much.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
Actually it was to reframe the question in a way that most sensible people would have read it in the frst place to see if there was any useful discussion to be had..

Well, I think that when "most sensible people" hear the word "dog", they think of something that barks and poops on the rug--They don't think of every possibility that might be misconstrued for the word.

I really don't know what "reframe" means, but if it means totally change the point being made with the question, I'd say that I don't know why you didn't just come out and say "Yeah, I can see why that question doesn't make sense. What about if we ask..." in the first place.

There's a galaxy's difference between "Did Aikido fail?" and "Did your training fail?"

As for "usefel" discussion, I think the discussion of "did the art fail or did the artist fail" is very useful. But, that's just me.

Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
because even if the vast majority of practioners of an art exhibit common problems, that are not found by the vast majority of practioners of certain other arts, that has nothing to do with the art itself.

Who's to say? I guess each of us have to answer it with our own understanding of that art. For me, I think I'd rather keep searching for the answer within the art, rather than take the egotisitcal route...but that's just me;)


Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
Well done, that's a great first step. I suggest to try the experiment again, but this time instead of going to a JJ (emphasis on ground) school, seek out a BJJ school.

Maybe some day. For now, I answered the questions that I had.

I'm still working on total implementation of Aikido for now. The carry over from Aikido to the ground-work was so immense, it doesn't make sense (for me) to mess with the any of it.

I wasn't looking to start doing ground (whatever style), just to see how Aikido effectively overlapped.

Just for the sake of honesty, on the visit, I forgot (as soon as I logged off, of course) I did get slammed twice. It was beautiful. Both by kyus.

Adam Alexander 02-16-2006 04:36 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
Sounds like you had a good and informative time Jean. Congrats!
Best,
Ron

Yes indeed! It was excellent.

I think the most signifant thing was that my understanding of Aikido techniques opened the door to understand their techniques (the ones that I was shown).

I don't think I'd have the same level of understanding of those techniques in four/five years of training that initially. The training seems to stifle understanding...atleast that's my observation.

Very fruitful.

Edwin Neal 02-16-2006 05:07 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
i tend to agree with Mr. Fooks, but lets break it down... we are talking about three distinct things...
1) Aikido... i hold as a complete martial art that includes all techniques, ranges and strategies... therefore it can neither fail or not fail...
2) training methodology... if you train crappy then your performance is crappy... whether you train aikido or ice skating or flower arranging
3) YOU... this tends to be the weakest link... how you approach your training and study makes all the difference... if you are not willing to be objective about your goals and performance level it can result in the kind of things Mr. Fooks is pointing out...

Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system.
Bruce Lee

Michael O'Brien 02-16-2006 06:28 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Quote:

Johan UllÚn wrote:
people without evidence claiming that aikido doesn't work in "real life" self defence; then some dude will tell a segal-like story of how he whipped someone's ass with flawless aikido techniques, and saved his friends life, and so forth.

I think that part of the original post sums it up; Some people claim Aikido doesn't work either A) because it didn't work for them for whatever reason or B) because they don't believe it will work but don't know for sure.

Others claim it did work either A) because they believe it will based on their training or B) it really did work in some fashion.

I've never had to use Aikido, or any martials arts training for self-defense since the early 1990's but here is my take on the situation. Aikido is a means to an end and as I believe Edwin said, Aikido can't fail or succeed, it is what it is.

That's like saying if I was in a shootout and I missed the person I was aiming at and I go "the gun failed". No, the gun put the bullet where I was aiming. Perhaps my aim was off, but the failure was with me, and not the gun.

There are people I know and train with who have told me stories of situations where they used Aikido effectively. Could I at this point in my training though? Not a chance! That isn't a flaw in Aikido, or even a flaw in my training. It is simply that I haven't reached a point where I am comfortable in technique and fluid and relaxed enough yet.

I have every confidence that I will never need to test the theory of Aikido working as a martial art; I'm equally confident that if that time does for whaver reason force itself upon me in the future that I, as an aikidoka, will be able to defend myself successfully.

*drops my .02 in the bucket*

Unregistrd 02-16-2006 06:54 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
I failed Aikido in 'real life', not the other way around. I saw a bad situation, tried to intervene, and had no effect. It was a failure of spirit, or focus, or intent, who knows... I had too much to drink, and the aggressor was dangerous-crazy. Do or do not, right? Well, that was a hell of a lesson, and it changed my perspective a lot. As far as I'm concerned, it is the person that fails and not Aikido.

RebeccaM 02-16-2006 07:49 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
I've never been in a physical confrontation. However, I've had to save myself from myself numerous times. I think knowing how to fall properly is why I'm still alive and in one piece...

As for the rest, I've always been told that it's the artist, not the art, that is weak. This is true for all martial arts, not just aikido.

xuzen 02-16-2006 08:54 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
I have always liked this quote:

Aikido works, yours don't. Do not confuse the two.

Boon.

Aristeia 02-16-2006 09:33 PM

Re: Did Aikido fail you in "real life"?
 
Boon, where's the falsifiablity in that? In other words, if I were to say that Beer Drinking Do is a fantastic form of self defence, and then said that Beer Drinking Do works, but yours doesn't, is that just as valid?


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