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Ascendedskater25 01-26-2006 06:40 AM

Ki and Technique...
 
I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

SeiserL 01-26-2006 08:20 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Extending energy with honest and genuine intent and intensity benefits all you do.
Yes, IMHO, it is true.

Kevin Leavitt 01-26-2006 03:23 PM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
As all topics of Ki wil have a million opinions...here is one.

IMHO, you cannot correctly perform the "technique" without the application of KI.

Viewing KI as a separate and distinct phenomenon from the physical aspects of practice will cause you issues...if not physically, then mentally in the appication and understanding of aikido and martial arts in general.

I personally leave my KI stuff as experiential. That is, I experience it as I learn and grow, do not seek to apply it, harness it, or cultivate it directly.

To me it becomes one of those Koan things in zen. If you seek it directly...it will escape you just as you find it.

Although as you state...a good Kiai certainly never hurt and is, IMHO, a verbal/physical manifestation of KI that can focus your energy and strength when needed!

bratzo_barrena 01-27-2006 08:19 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
My two cents,
Ki is not something in itself, Ki is a consecuence, an state.
A consecuence of focusing body, mind and spirit (intention/will) to achieve certain goal. In whatever field you are, not only aikido, in any sport or activity, for that matter, you can achieve ki.
So ki is an state in which your body, your senses, mind, will, all of what you are is aimed to achieve certain goal.
For example, a heavyweight lifter, when he is going to lift the weight, he aligns his body in the optimal position for that purpose, also concentrates his mind in lifting the weight, his will/intention is to lift that weight, so he generates this "supernatural" stength/power to lift that weight. But in reality is not supernatural, and is not magic.
Take the same heavyweight lifter, trying to lift the same weight, but this time have him standing in an awkward position, he will not be able to lift the same weight, beacuse his body is not properly aligned, even though his mind and will are focused to lifting the weight.
So, Ki is a state in which a person is focusing all what he/she (body/mind/spirit/will/intention) is to achieve certain goal in any activity in life.
But ki is not a supernatural energy, all migthty power, that one can feel and/or project at will, Jedi style, that's a lot of bullshit.
Ki cannot be measured, felt, projected or otherwise in itself because is not something in itself, it is just an state.
Like love, anger, happinness, etc. They are states, they exist, but are states. You can't measure love or anger, in themselves, or happines in itself, but you can understand love or hate by its phisical manifestation (like a hug or a kiss or a punch), and what you can measure is the physical manifestations of love or anger, i.e. the strengh of a hug, the duration of a kiss, the force of the punch. In the same way you can measure the physical manifestations of ki, in the heavyweight lifter example, would be the force generated to lift the weight.
So ki is an state, a consecuence, not a supernatural force. Also Ki has physical limitations.
Using the same heavyweight lifter example, he alings his body, focuses his mind, and his will to..... lift train above his head. Well, he just wont be able to do it.
So ki is not unique property of aikidokas, everybody has benn in the ki state, some time, even without knowing.
Ki is an state, an unavopidable consecuence of just doing things right.
I tryed to be as clear as possible, but english is not my native languaje

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral FL

malc anderson 02-25-2006 06:57 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi Ya BB, Do you practice Meditation? Malc
" It is the supreme state of Aikido to be one with the Spirit of the Universe. For this reason it is called the Budo of Unification and Oneness".M.Ueshiba

Josh Reyer 02-25-2006 07:57 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
"Ki" essentially means "energy". It is used idiomatically in martial arts. It has not weathered translation into the English idiom very well. Do research on ki and qi in martial arts, learn the language if you can, and try to crack the idiom.

The same goes for "kokyu" as well.

Good luck...

Lyle Bogin 02-25-2006 03:44 PM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
I still cannot decide if Ki is an endless path or a bottomless pit.

eyrie 02-26-2006 02:29 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Well Lyle, do you think you have ki? If you don't think you do, why not? If you think you do, why?

malc anderson 02-27-2006 05:34 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi ya L.B, I read your thread, and it reminded me of a saying in the ancient Chinese book ‘The Tao Te Ching'
No14
Look and it can't be seen,
Listen and it can't be heard,
Reach and it can't be grasped.

Above it isn't bright,
Below it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnameable,
It returns to the realm of nothing. Form that includes all forms,
Image without an image, subtle, beyond all conception.

Approach it and there is no beginning;
Follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it, at ease in your life.
Just realize where you come from;
This is the essence of wisdom.

It's hard to stand in the void, but it's not empty, it's just you must learn to be aware in a different way, Just Meditate every day, 1hour is a minimum. Read ‘The Way of Peace', O'Sensei wrote it for You, what a great teacher he was;

107
The Divine is not something high above us. It is in heaven, it is in earth, it is inside of us.
108
Unite yourself to the cosmos, and the thought of transcendence will disappear. Transcendence belongs to the profane world. When all trace of transcendence vanishes, the true person - the Divine Being - is manifest. Empty yourself and let the Divine function.
109
You cannot see or touch the Divine with your gross senses. The Divine is within you, not somewhere else. Unite yourself to the Divine, and you will be able to perceive gods wherever you are, but do not try to grasp or cling to them.
All the best Malc

ian 02-27-2006 08:18 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Ki and shouting is not the same. However I would certainly say that vocalisation can help to provide focus in generating more power, with timing, and also with disorientating the enemy. I find I use it involuntarily within weapon work since often very urgent and decisive moves with perfect timing are required.

Ki is a very complex subject (covered in many other threads). Simply put it is 'energy' which you can accumulate, and then realse (as jing) through correct posture, coordination and movement. I'm not sure if I believe in the mythology, but it is a good model of how to improve your technique and your health so that you can perform effectively.

Larry Cuvin 02-27-2006 01:54 PM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
James Webb wrote:

I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true? Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Hi James,
I'm using your term "using Ki" as extending Ki. A definite yes on adding potential on any technique or for anything we do in our life. I have been a student of Ki Aikido for just a year and a half now and the things that I learn on every Ki class we never ceases to amaze me. Extending Ki when you perform anything allows you to perform at your full potential.

As far as "Kiai" is concerned, we normally do not do this during practice but in my opinion, it adds to your focus and therefore adds energy towards the technique.

malc anderson 02-28-2006 07:12 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi ya I.D, This is the spiritual part to this web site but it seems there are not many Aikidokas who have any positive ideas about O'Sensei's Aikido(spiritual side) and seem like yourself to believe it all to be silly stories (myths). One thing is definite that the great man did not write works like ‘The Way of Peace ‘ because he was bored one day or wanted to play a joke. I can understand that most people come to Aikido like any martial art to basically learn to ‘kick ass', but then to read/be told that the founder was ‘into that mystical stuff' would not be understood.
I come from a different angle I have been practicing RajYoga for 30yrs and Tai Chi for 10yrs, and come to this site to see if anymore works of the great man have been found/translated as teachers like O'Sensei can inspire followers of ‘the way' and help us to practice harder our meditation techniques. It is a shame that meditation has so many different types/styles and money making people that have jumped on the band wagon. We now have chanting, shaved heads, living in caves, giving up sex, practicing detachment, whale music, Yoga mats, staring at candles, standing on one leg, hugging trees and all the new age stuff, it seems on the outside like a load of rubbish and most of it is, but when the Founder tells us to use the Pranayarma in ‘The Way of Peace, he pointed out the most commonly used REAL technique of meditation.
There is an experience of Peace/Love in side every human being and it is there, waiting to be tapped into. It is hard to clear our head of all the thoughts that constantly chatter away in our every day but it's only when we do this that we can be come aware of this wonderful experience, we touch it from time to time when the head stops or in training, a quiet state but with the next thought it can be gone. Practicing meditation every day helps us to control this crazy beast that lives in our heads, as my teacher asked me " Do you want to be a passenger or do you want to be the pilot of your life" this is so true, all you smokers out there who have tried to give up will know how powerful this mind of ours is, and to tell people to sit quietly on there own? Well that sounds like solitary confinement and that's used as a torture! If you were to try O'Sensei's way and meditate everyday you will be engulfed by the Inner Light, then there are know doubts, it is awesome, wonderful, the best orgasm you'll ever have (with none of the mess). But it's not like a chocolate bar machine, you put in your money and it comes out, it may take yrs, it took me two years to have Kensho.
Trust the Great Man and turn your awareness that goes outside all the time and focus inside, it is hard but the rewards are enormous. Have a look at ‘The Nature of Aiki' by G.S.Ledyard on this site, very nice article. I'll shut up now, here's some more words of the great man, I've added a bit in brackets hope know one minds All the best Malc
We can say that Aikido is a way to sweep away devils with the sincerity of our breath (PRANAYARMA) instead of a sword. That is to say, to turn the devil-minded world into the World of Spirit. This is the mission of Aikido.
There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe (MEDITATION)).
Then, how can you straighten YOUR warped mind, purify your heart, and be harmonized with the activities of all things in Nature? You should first make the kami's heart yours (THROUGH MEDITATION). It is a Great love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe.
Winning means winning over the mind of discord in YOURSELF. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission.
This is not mere theory. You practice it. Then you will accept the great power of oneness with Nature.

Ron Tisdale 02-28-2006 11:55 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

One thing is definite that the great man did not write works like ‘The Way of Peace ‘ because he was bored one day or wanted to play a joke. I
"The Way Of Peace" was written by John Stevens, not Ueshiba Sensei.

Best,
Ron

tarik 02-28-2006 04:18 PM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

James Webb wrote:
I have been taught that using Ki in our techniques will add potential, is that true?

I guess it depends on what is meant by using ki. Defining ki is important or else we're not speaking the same language and transmitting genuine meaning.

Quote:

James Webb wrote:
Example when I see an open spot while open sparring and I make a strike adding a 'kihai!' will add strength. is this tue for all techniques?

Entering into a real opening will definitely always add strength to a technique.

Tarik

Upyu 03-02-2006 09:22 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Use the search function ;)
It's been done to death...

malc anderson 03-04-2006 05:26 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. He was the founder of Aikido, which can be translated as "The Art of Peace." Morihei Ueshiba is referred to by the practitioners of Aikido as O-Sensei, "The Great Teacher". The following quotations have been compiled from O-Sensei's collected talks, poems, and calligraphy, and from oral tradition."
Hi ya Ron, As O'Sensei was Japanese and I can't read the Japanese language, I do rely on compilers and translators for an insight into the great mans words, (it's a shame that the points made in my thread were missed, but not completely unexpected). Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies? As I wouldn't like to misquote O'Sensei.
Also Ron do you do meditation? And if so have you experienced Kensho? Also you made no comment on the article by Mr Leyland. Please feel free to add to this thread and move it forward. All the best Malc

grondahl 03-04-2006 06:40 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

malc anderson wrote:
Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies?

Apparently no "shades of gray" here.

Mike Sigman 03-04-2006 03:45 PM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Well, Malc.... looks like you've been sent to Coventry.

Mike

Ron Tisdale 03-06-2006 08:01 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi Malc,

Where in my post did I claim that Mr. Stevens was a "liar"? You really should learn how to read before you cast such inaccuracies and aspersions. As it happens, I consider Stevens Sensei a friend, and teacher. I do not agree with all of his perspectives, but any disagreements with his perspectives are always polite and respectfull. I certainly wouldn't bandy them about in this forum, in any case. And certainly not with you.

If you wish to move this conversation forward, I'd accept an appology. ;)

Best,
Ron
Quote:

Malcolm Anderson wrote:
" Morihei Ueshiba (1883-1969) was history's greatest martial artist. He was the founder of Aikido, which can be translated as "The Art of Peace." Morihei Ueshiba is referred to by the practitioners of Aikido as O-Sensei, "The Great Teacher". The following quotations have been compiled from O-Sensei's collected talks, poems, and calligraphy, and from oral tradition."
Hi ya Ron, As O'Sensei was Japanese and I can't read the Japanese language, I do rely on compilers and translators for an insight into the great mans words, (it's a shame that the points made in my thread were missed, but not completely unexpected). Please could you verify that Mr Stevens is a liar and any articles by him are also lies? As I wouldn't like to misquote O'Sensei.
Also Ron do you do meditation? And if so have you experienced Kensho? Also you made no comment on the article by Mr Leyland. Please feel free to add to this thread and move it forward. All the best Malc


malc anderson 03-08-2006 07:03 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi ya Ron, Are we both trying to defend the excellent Mr Stevens work? I hold his work in the highest regard, and would advise any Aikidoka to read any of his books they have certainly inspired me. I am sad that you are upset and I apologise for this as harmony is what I want in my and every one's life. You may have noticed one of the other posts also miss understood your post as he wrote about ‘grey areas', I don't agree, Mr Stevens translations are excellent, any way I shall close before any one decides to burn me at the stake. I wish you all the best bye .Malc I shall not bother you all again.

Ron Tisdale 03-08-2006 07:33 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi Malc,

The other poster was referring to your post, not mine ;) And I'm not upset...just speaking strongly about what you said. You can speak strongly without being upset, which is why I used the smiley. Just because you don't agree with someone on some things does not mean you think they are a liar... ;) But your apology is certainly accepted. No reason for you to stop 'bothering' us...you weren't. Hopefully you'll continue to post.

As for the published works of John Stevens, I have most of them. My favorite is his biography of Teshhu. The next would be his book about the aikido of Rinjiro Shirata. The next would be his translation of 'Budo', written by Ueshiba, and the photos Stevens Sensei added. The others are more hagiography to my mind...they contain much of the 'lore' of Ueshiba and aikido...but when it comes to actual history, I prefer Stan Pranin's work. But this preference in no way takes away from the tremendous gifts Stevens Sensei has given to me personally, and to aikido in general.

Best,
Ron

Mike Sigman 03-08-2006 07:56 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

Ron Tisdale wrote:
I do not agree with all of his perspectives, but any disagreements with his perspectives are always polite and respectfull. I certainly wouldn't bandy them about in this forum, in any case.

Hi Ron:

If you disagreed with some of Steven's perspectives, where would you discuss them, if not here? Disagreement would allow you to make your points and people could decide for themselves while at the same time getting people to think, follow your reasoning, follow Stevens' reasoning, and so on. When someone publicly prints something, it's open for discussion. I've followed some discussions about things I've printed and agreed, disagreed, and learned. It's always added to my own picture, never detracted.

Regards,

Mike

Josh Reyer 03-08-2006 08:03 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

Malcolm Anderson wrote:
Mr Stevens translations are excellent, any way

Even the best translations are heavily filtered by the translator's own perspective and/or bias (conscious and unconscious). I recommend that you learn Japanese so that you can read the originals, without Mr. Stevens' filter.

Ron Tisdale 03-08-2006 08:04 AM

Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Hi Mike,

Well, I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying. And if Stevens Sensei participated in these boards, I might well take your advice. But he doesn't, and most likely will not. His choice, and I don't fault him for it.

What a lot of people seem to have problems with on boards like these, is that actual, living relationships are much more important to me (at least) than the conversations and discussions we have here. Since I have an actual, living relationship with Stevens Sensei, I choose to value that over any discussions here. So when he is in the area, he shares things with me, I share things with him, and we discuss. Along with any mat time we get in together. I wouldn't cheapen that relationship by bringing that stuff online.

But that is just my own personal perspective, and it doesn't have to be shared by anyone else.

Best,
Ron

Erick Mead 03-08-2006 08:39 AM

Love and Aikido -- Re: Ki and Technique...
 
Quote:

Malcolm Anderson wrote:
some more words of the great man,
---- (Malcolm quoting Ueshiba)

There is no enemy for Ueshiba of Aikido. You are mistaken if you think that budo means to have opponents and enemies and to be strong and fell them. There are neither opponents nor enemies for true budo. True budo is to be one with the universe; that is to be united with the Center of the universe (MEDITATION)).
It is a Great love, Omnipresent in all quarters and in all times of the universe.
Winning means winning over the mind of discord in YOURSELF. It is to accomplish your bestowed mission.
This is not mere theory. You practice it. Then you will accept the great power of oneness with Nature.

Less esoterically, practice of martial art as a endeavor in love is not antithetical. It is in fact a realization of the highest level of art in battle, and the revealing of a powerful but perilous truth.

Men do not fight and die in battle for the sake of country, honor, fame or to avoid recrimination. They fight out of love of one another, for those who stand arm to arm with them and would also die to defend them. Love, and love alone drives men to charge machine guns when their own ammunition is spent and the bayonet their only remaining weapon. Nothing but love will drive a man so far past the bounds of any hopes of personal survival. It is a love both life-altering for oneself, live or die, and both awful and terrifying to behold in another.

On the pyres of such love have empires and mighty civilizations been burnt to utter ruin by the passion of a few -- it is not a delicately frail thing. One man, in my religious tradition, willingly suffered and died for such love of the whole world, and in the most ignoble manner possible, yet that love still altered the course of world history, if not eternity. Love is mighty, indefatigable and can cherish or kill with equal fervor. Love is a fierce and awesome force.

We approach therefore with both caution and reverence this thing that we dare to awaken in our hearts, and in which we train our limbs to answer. We aikidoka do it, however, with one advantage over other martial traditions, which O-Sensei taught us:: we know that love is the true call we must answer to train in the Way of war (budo), even to love those with whom we fight -- as that other great man also taught us.
We must not do disservice to ourselves or our students by suggesting that love is a marshmallowy walk through flowery fields, or long spells of mere navel-gazing.

By all means kiai -- with all the ferocity and love you can manage.

Cordially,
Erick Mead


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