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Pdella 01-18-2006 12:58 PM

Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
In my class the other day, we practiced feeling other peoples' intentions/energy. We stood with our eyes closed and sensei focused his energy/intention on one part of our body, and we were supposed to go with whatever we felt, do whatever seemed natural. Well, the rest of the class responded in various ways, some moved far away from the energy, some moved around it, etc. I just stood there, because I didn't feel anything. My teacher suggested I just relax more and let my senses open more.

Any suggestions?

Jorge Garcia 01-18-2006 01:11 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
That's beyond me but I would respect anyone who can really do that.

Erik 01-18-2006 01:40 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
My suggestion is that you were the only one there not bullshitting himself.

And, I'd suggest a better practice, put the sensei, or someone, behind a curtain, and see how people react or don't react based on whether or not the sensei is there, isn't there, or someone else is there. You'll have to keep some tight controls but if you can do that what you'll find is that people suddenly aren't so sensitive afterall. Of course a curtain and the ill intentions of the testers will no doubt damage the ki flow. :rolleyes:

I've done similar exercises to the one described, one specifically where you attacked from behind, and were supposed to sense the attack. Interestingly, the room was filled with shadows and mats make noises so there were all kinds of cues to when the attack was happening. Now, I'm all for that kind of sensitivity training (awareness of surroundings and similar) but it wasn't being sold that way. So when I started taking those variables out (attacked towards the sun, attacking quietly, etc) people's performances declined drastically including the sensei's. Well, when that started happening, the teacher made the argument that he was accurately reading my intention to attack...and of course when the person moves the attacker tended to move so basically I needed some big boots to wade through what was being passed around on that mat.

At best people can read someone's intention based on sounds, touch, visual cues and similar things which can produce remarkable and surprising results but it ain't energy shooting out of some sensei's butt.....well, that actually can move people....

Aiki LV 01-18-2006 02:20 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
I will never understand why people have to say something is "bullsh**. Just because you have not experienced it or don't believe in it does not make it false right off the bat. I personally don't believe in everything someone tells me or demonstrates, but that doesn't mean it is crap. If something works for someone else good for them. I'm not going to be purposefully insulting because I don't agree. Perhaps I lack the experience to feel what they feel or maybe my lack of openness is getting in the way as well. Saying that something isn't for me and
Quote:

My suggestion is that you were the only one there not bullshitting himself.
is quite different. I guess my rambling point is why can't we respect each other here? Why must we resort to being insulting when we don't agree with a certain style or training method? Why not just try to be respectfully in your opposition.

bkedelen 01-18-2006 02:21 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
I agree with Erik. The power of Aikido is the power of the natural world, not a supernatural power. It is the application of everyday movement which brings about extraordinary results. Diddling each other with mental energy may yield amazing results to someone other than me, but in my experience, it one of few red herrings in my exploration of the rabbit-hole.

bkedelen 01-18-2006 02:26 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Speaking of red herrings, Mindy's argument that Erik is wrong because she found his argument insulting is a perfect example of the logical fallacy informally known as the red herring.

Mark Uttech 01-18-2006 02:43 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
In a thread like this, I always think about going outside and feeling the energy of the wind. It seems to set aside everything else. In gassho.

Aiki LV 01-18-2006 02:46 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
WOW, did I ever say he was wrong? I would like you to point out to me where I directly stated he was wrong. Way to twist what I said. You obviously missed the intention of what I was going for, but that's okay. Saying being insulting isn't necessary does not equal wrong. I was simply making a suggestion. Thanks for the reason & logic lesson though, reminds me of college. Have you taken symbolic logic?

James Davis 01-18-2006 03:47 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Mindy Imbuido wrote:
WOW, did I ever say he was wrong? I would like you to point out to me where I directly stated he was wrong. Way to twist what I said. You obviously missed the intention of what I was going for, but that's okay. Saying being insulting isn't necessary does not equal wrong. I was simply making a suggestion. Thanks for the reason & logic lesson though, reminds me of college. Have you taken symbolic logic?

You never said he was wrong. Not once. :drool:

Keep standing up for yourself and others. You can't get walked on unless you lay down. ;)

crbateman 01-18-2006 03:56 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Mark Uttech wrote:
In a thread like this, I always think about going outside and feeling the energy of the wind. It seems to set aside everything else. In gassho.

Pretty good amount of wind right here in this thread... ;)

batemanb 01-19-2006 12:44 AM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Benjamin Edelen wrote:
I agree with Erik. The power of Aikido is the power of the natural world, not a supernatural power.

Surely the power of KI is natural energy? Don't recall O Sensei calling it supernatural, wasn't he an advocate of the harmony of nature?

rgds

Bryan

Demetrio Cereijo 01-19-2006 10:05 AM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Peter Della wrote:
In my class the other day, we practiced feeling other peoples' intentions/energy. We stood with our eyes closed and sensei focused his energy/intention on one part of our body, and we were supposed to go with whatever we felt, do whatever seemed natural. Well, the rest of the class responded in various ways, some moved far away from the energy, some moved around it, etc. I just stood there, because I didn't feel anything. My teacher suggested I just relax more and let my senses open more.

Any suggestions?

Try to resurrect Benjamin Franklin.

bkedelen 01-19-2006 10:07 AM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
The intent of your post was clearly to diminish Erik's position in the discussion. No post yet made, including yours, has been offensive (by which I mean no personal attacks were made, and no inappropriate content was referenced). If we are not allowed to call bullshit in martial arts (the ancient mainstay of the parlor trick) discussions, then this forum will become much less useful.

Aiki LV 01-19-2006 11:21 AM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
[PHP]The intent of your post was clearly to diminish Erik's position in the discussion.[/PHP]

I find it interesting that you would make that claim. You don't know me and as I stated earlier you missed my intention completely. I don't quite understand why you feel the need to beat the point about my intention to death. For the record I don't wish to "diminish" his position. I was addressing the language he used and the attitude associated with his choice of words. Now if you choose to you can once again question my motives, say what you want I really don't care. I think we have gotten a little off track here. ;) We will just have to agree to disagree. Happy training :)

Ben Eaton 01-19-2006 11:51 AM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Before someone announces this thread formally hijacked...

I would have a problem at this early stage in my training and indeed, my life, believing that people could have a "sense" of the next move, like a mild precognitive ability, but I wouldn't say that it just plain isn't possible.
That to me would suggest a mind completely closed to ideas outside their own sphere of understanding, which in my opinion is not the way to approach any kind of training which does involve a mental element, or how to approach anything in life. Open mindedness isn't a skill as such, it's a way of thinking and generally people with open minds are better off for it.

But you do have senses other than your eyes with which to guess the next move with, and I think experience would play a part in predicting what someone is going to do/what attack is coming next.

Erik 01-19-2006 01:51 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
It's always interesting in these sorts of threads to see how people respond and what they respond to. I used the word I used precisely because it accurately conveys how people often respond to their own experiences.

I 100% guarantee that I could find and convince people that I have precognitive / supernatural abilities. I couldn't do this with everyone or maybe even most people but I could do it with enough people, eventually, to fill a small dojo with em. Don't believe me? Ask yourself how many people pony up money to Jeane Dixon....or ponied up to Mesmer...

Now imagine you are a new aikido student and you walk into my dojo. I'm sitting there with students flinging themselves through the air as if by magic (been there, seen it, done it myself, more than once) but you ain't getting it. So do we do that student any service whatsoever by feeding him more nonsense about being sensitive, or, do we call it straight for what it almost certainly is? I think we do a student a grave disservice if we do anything else.

Secondly, just because people are bullshitting themselves doesn't make them bad. Human beings are notorious self-bullshitters to such a degree that we should trust our experiences substantially less than we do. Which hits to the crux of the problem and the solution. Any teacher claiming to be able to do what this guy was claiming ought to be able to do it under more substantive and rigorous situations than a dojo. If all he can do is that bullshit mentioned by the original poster he's got nothing even worth discussing because it's a truly lame expression of ability totally lacking in even basic controls.

Thirdly, on the near precognitive abilities, please don't mistake skill for magic. I've played basketball with top-flight players and they flat-out see things before I do. They did it, frankly, because they were just better than I am, and played more than I did. While it can seem like magic, skill is simply skill, and very highly skilled individuals often perform at such a level that it seems like magic.

Also, I'm all for awareness practices but don't purport that it's, oh I don't know, ki shooting out fingertips, when it can be explained in many other far more likely ways. An open mind wouldn't rush to the assumption that it's ki moving those people but rather would engage in a rigorous examination of the process the likes of which this guy's instructor, and just about any believer, wouldn't dream of doing. By the way, I can't remember this sort of thing ever being tested this way in the context of a dojo environment.

Back to work...

Mary Eastland 01-19-2006 02:52 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
I can tell where peoples centers are when they are training. Does that count? I can feel ki when people extend it and I can feel when they aren't
Mary

Esaemann 01-19-2006 02:57 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Not sure who might be familiar with Cheng Man-Ching (CMC), but if so, this may have some meaning.
Also, would like to stipulate that my instructor said this and I haven't seen the source of the comment myself.
CMC had stated that there is some type of electomagnetic signal (or whatever you call the brain activity) that happens in the brain a fraction (maybe 0.5) of a second before one thinks of moving, say his hand.
Is there scientific reasearch behind this? (thinking outloud)
Can you feel another person's energy? Perhaps after many years of dedicated practice, but I would think one must be able to feel one's own first.

Choku Tsuki 01-19-2006 03:15 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
I've made a person feel something without touching them. They have to have to see me. Try this some time:

-locate and walk on a crowded street
-make eye contact with someone directly in front of you (best if you're on a collision course)
-aim your center at their center

I don't do this all the time. I work in Times Square (where the ball drops on New Years Eve); lots of people around at lunch time. Sometimes I get to practice this. When done with sincere and focused intent, I think your unwary training partner 'feels' your 'energy.'

Try it.

--Chuck

Mark Uttech 01-19-2006 03:21 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
I think it has something to do with 'connection', but I'm never sure. Something like this belongs in the 'Never Sure' category.

Aristeia 01-19-2006 03:22 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Mary, when you say you can tell when someone is extending Ki is that if they are in physical contact with you or from across the room?

If you decide that they are or are not extending Ki, how do you find out if you are correct?

James Kelly 01-19-2006 03:38 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Chuck Kuske wrote:
I've made a person feel something without touching them. They have to have to see me. Try this some time:

-locate and walk on a crowded street
-make eye contact with someone directly in front of you (best if you're on a collision course)
-aim your center at their center

I don't do this all the time. I work in Times Square (where the ball drops on New Years Eve); lots of people around at lunch time. Sometimes I get to practice this. When done with sincere and focused intent, I think your unwary training partner 'feels' your 'energy.'

Yeah, but that's just because you're really scary looking. I'd get out of you way if I saw you coming at me in times square... lol

bratzo_barrena 01-19-2006 03:47 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
My two cents,
Ki is not something in itself, Ki is a consecuence, an state.
A consecuence of focusing body, mind and spirit (intention/will) to achieve certain goal. In whatever field you are, not only aikido, in any sport or activity, for that matter, you can achieve ki.
So ki is an state in which your body, your senses, mind, will, all of what you are is aimed to achieve certain goal.
For example, a heavyweight lifter, when he is going to lift the weight, he aligns his body in the optimal position for that purpose, also concentrates his mind in lifting the weight, his will/intention is to lift that weight, so he generates this "supernatural" stength/power to lift that weight. But in reality is not supernatural, and is not magic.
Take the same heavyweight lifter, trying to lift the same weight, but this time have him standing in an awkward position, he will not be able to lift the same weight, beacuse his body is not properly aligned, even though his mind and will are focused to lifting the weight.
So, Ki is a state in which a person is focusing all what he/she (body/mind/spirit/will/intention) is to achieve certain goal in any activity in life.
But ki is not a supernatural energy, all migthty power, that one can feel and/or project at will, Jedi style, that's a lot of bullshit.
Ki cannot be measured, felt, projected or otherwise in itself because is not something in itself, it is just an state.
Like love, anger, happinness, etc. They are states, they exist, but are states. You can't measure love in itself, or happines in itself, but you can understand love by its phisical manifestation (like a hug or a kiss), and what you can measure is the physical maifestations of love, i.e. the strengh of a hug, the duration of a kiss, in the same way you can measure the physical manifestations of ki, in the heavyweight lifter example, would be the force generated to lift the weight.
So ki is an state, a consecuence, not a spernatural force. Also Ki has physical limitations.
Using the same heavyweight lifter example, he alings his body, focuses his mind, and his will to..... stop an incoming train. Well, he's just going to be crushed.
I tryed to be as clear as possible, but english is not my native languaje

Bratzo Barrena
Instructor Aikido Goshin Dojo
Doral FL

deepsoup 01-19-2006 04:37 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Chuck Kuske wrote:

-locate and walk on a crowded street
-make eye contact with someone directly in front of you (best if you're on a collision course)
-aim your center at their center

<snip>
When done with sincere and focused intent, I think your unwary training partner 'feels' your 'energy.'

Hmm...
Eye contact and physical posturing among primates with a highly evolved social structure.

I'd offer the alternative theory that there's some (surprisingly primative) non-verbal communication taking place here. Congratulations, Chuck, your extended ki makes you an alpha male - you're the biggest chimp in Times Square!

Mary Eastland 01-19-2006 06:59 PM

Re: Practicing perceiving other energy?
 
Quote:

Michael Fooks wrote:
Mary, when you say you can tell when someone is extending Ki is that if they are in physical contact with you or from across the room?

If you decide that they are or are not extending Ki, how do you find out if you are correct?

When I go to grab them I am already off balance. You know the feeling where you would rather not attack...cause of how nage feels??
Mary


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