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-   -   Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9607)

aikidodragon 01-15-2006 03:25 PM

Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Shodokan Tomiki why do we have two names for what looks like the same art?
Here's how it all started;
I was invited to go train withthe university Aikido clube, and they train Tomiki. Well I started researching this style. I am trying to find out as mutch as possible about this style before meating these people. And one thing I have noticed is that this style of Aikido has two names.
Yes yes I know that a lot of people don't think that the Shodokan/Tomiki styles are not Aikido, Kill me later.
And why all the issues with calling it Aikido? Tomiki trained under O Sensei as well as with Jigoro Kano, who also trained with O Sensei.
So someone please please help me understand these questions.
Thank you for putting up with me.

crbateman 01-15-2006 04:06 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
I'll address a couple of your questions. Shodokan is the name of the style. Tomiki is the name of the originator of the style. The use of "Tomiki Aikido" is a euphemism to describe the style originated by Tomiki.

Also, Jigaro Kano did not study with O'Sensei, but was impressed by him. Kenji Tomiki was one of the high-ranking Kano students who was dispatched by him to study with O'Sensei, in order to bring a better sense of what he was doing back to judo.

Train well.

PeterR 01-15-2006 06:11 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Hi Sara;

A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Please read http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/name.html

The site is of course the best point of reference for Shodokan.

Several later students of Kano were dispatched to Ueshiba and Tomiki was encouraged to continue but as I understand it Tomiki found Ueshiba through friends.

aikidodragon 01-15-2006 07:09 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Thank you Peter I will check out the links you suggested. There is just so mutch to read, and it seems like not everyone can agree. O well thats what I get for using the internet. It is nice to talk to someone who trains Shodokan, your information and help is of grai value to me.
I am grateful for any information from anyone.

crbateman 01-15-2006 07:59 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Peter, thanks for correcting my mea culpa. I was thinking of Mochizuki Sensei, who was one of those sent to Ueshiba by Dr. Kano in 1930. This was 4 years after Tomiki began training with O'Sensei, and 20 years after he began with Kano. That was like a hundred years ago, and I don't remember so good no more... :D

PeterR 01-15-2006 08:20 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Interestingly some others who should know also got it wrong - most noteable Chiba in an interview. Of course he may have got it from a previous error as he was not on the scene.

According to the Shodokan Honbu profile on Tomiki he only met Kano 2 years before meeting Ueshiba. He started Judo in school age 10 in 1910.

Shoot me - I like historical context.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/profile1.html

James Smithe 01-15-2006 08:25 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Kenji Tomiki preferred the name Shodokan. He thought it was arrogant to name a style after himself. But people call it Tomiki anyway.

aikidodragon 01-15-2006 08:50 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.

crbateman 01-16-2006 07:30 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Sara, pretty much all modern Judo is attributed to that of Dr. Kano, so "Kano Judo" goes without saying. But since all Aikido does not come from that of Kenji Tomiki, "Tomiki Aikido" is indeed a telling description, just not one that Tomiki himself would give it. That does not explain why Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido is not called "Tohei Aikido" or why Yoshinkan Aikido is not called "Shioda Aikido", but perhaps because there is also a Shotokan style of Karate, the name "Tomiki Aikido" stuck, to avoid the confusion that might have been caused because of the similarity of names "Shodokan" and "Shotokan". I don't know for sure, it's just my guess. Anyway, the name is not as important as the training. I hope you do well.

deepsoup 01-16-2006 09:09 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Quote:

Sara Parson wrote:
Yes but why did the name Tomiki Aikido stick, I am a Judoka And we don't call it Kano Judo.
I wonder why that happened.

My understanding of it is this:

Its probably because Tomiki K began developing his ideas well before the "split" with the Aikikai. I guess people started to talk about "Tomiki Aikido" as a shorthand for "that stuff that Tomiki is doing", but the man himself didn't regard it as anything other than just plain "Aikido" so resisted giving it a name (and definitely disapproved of people using his own name that way).

It was only when the Shodokan dojo was founded that the style acquired a name - the name of its honbu dojo.

No doubt Peter will be along shortly to correct my shaky history. :)

Sean
x

PeterR 01-16-2006 05:34 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Hi Sean;

That's basically it. The name Shodokan has become associated with a particular curriculum and place so there was some reason for maintaining a broader description in the minds of some, particularly a few of Nariyama Shihan's sempai. In Japan that function was provided by the Japan Aikido Association which is now completely Shodokan.

I think one of the more interesting aspects of Tomiki's Aikido is the strongly developed curriculum and how it evolved. Several well respected non-Japanese Aikidoists learned from Tomiki in the 50s and early 60s and teach in that way. Shodokan Aikido developed continuously while Tomiki was alive and to an extent still does. I think this is one of the reasons the Tomiki designation still exists.

But again - what really matters is what happens on the mat.

odudog 01-18-2006 12:31 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
This issue with calling Shodokan Aikido tends to be on how it is applied. Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. This way the art now becomes a sport and Japanese colleges love to have sports clubs on campus. Osensei said that Aikido should not be a competition hence there are no tournaments for trophies or weight class champions. This is why some people get all rilled up when Shodokan is referred to as Aikido.

Chuck Clark 01-18-2006 01:50 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Quote:

Mike Braxton wrote:
Shodokan has a competition aspect to how they practice. Tomiki Sensei had to do this so that he could teach at a college for the college didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property.

I don't think this is quite the way it happened. Waseda University had other budo clubs, including aikido connected with the Ueshiba Aikikai. I think it was because in order for it to be a "for credit course" rather than a "club" they had to be able to measure and quantify the student's learning as in a "win-lose" contest measurement. I have never heard of the idea that Waseda officials didn't want any aggressive arts being taught on school property. University kendo and judo aren't passive, I can assure you.

aikidodragon 01-18-2006 02:43 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Judo the gentle way. Yah right.

akiy 01-18-2006 03:18 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Quote:

Sara Parson wrote:
Judo the gentle way. Yah right.

Personally, I disagree with the translation of "ju" (as in "judo," "jujutsu") as "gentle." Rather, I use the translation of "pliable" myself.

-- Jun

rorenshi 01-18-2006 06:05 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
The term shodokan Tomiki is along exactly the same lines as Shotokan karate-do. Shodo is Japanese for(I think)calligraphy and the kan is yet another word fo style. Tomiki-san wanted his style to be like the flowing of a brush over paper,just as Ueshiba-shihan wanted his style to represent a willow tree bending rather than breaking in heavy snow. The name is just a sort of promotional thing, from the originators years. It was common place to give a new art its own "public name". Think of all the other multi-named martial arts...kodokan judo, aikikai aikido, shotokan karate-do, san shi kai karate...all these are just bits of advertisment or a summary of the styles principals.

Methinks.

PeterR 01-18-2006 06:32 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
My God lets all make up things that sound good.

Chuck is generally right about Waseda. Shodokan dogma was that Tomiki was toying with the idea before hand but I do think the imputus came from Waseda's requirement. Untill that time Tomiki was teaching Aikido to Judo guys on the side so it never became an issue. A non-competivie Aikikai club (remember Tomiki never stopped being a member of Aikikai) was started soon after.

The Sho of Shodokan is the same as the Sho of Showa, the name of the last emperor. It is also related to the name where his Honbu dojo was founded - the Showacho district of Osaka. Sho means enlightened, Do path, Kan place.

crbateman 01-18-2006 07:28 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Stop holding back, Peter... Tell us what you THINK... :D

Josh Reyer 01-18-2006 08:07 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Not to mention that the "sho" of Shodokan is actually "shou", i.e., an elongated "o" sound. The "sho" of "shodo", calligraphy (actually "shodou"), is not elongated.

昭道館 - しょうどうかん - Shoudoukan

書道 - しょどう - Shodou

PeterR 01-18-2006 08:08 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
The thing is the information is out there - if one takes a look.

According to the Shodokan Honbu web site the English translation of Shodokan is 'place for identifying the way'.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/jaa.html

Shiroi Usagi 01-18-2006 11:03 PM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
hey, sorry if this is a bit unrelated, but how many different types of aikido are there?

PeterR 01-19-2006 12:00 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikido scroll down to styles.

Not totally comprehensive but enough to give an idea.

IlyasDexter 01-23-2006 07:39 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido

Yann Golanski 01-23-2006 08:10 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Quote:

Ilyas Dexter wrote:
Off the point a little but Tomiki Sensei also developed the Kodokan Judo Goshin Jutsu Kata and given that you are a Judoka you should feel right at home with this system of Aikido

Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

IlyasDexter 01-23-2006 09:13 AM

Re: Shodokan, Tomiki, Aikikai?
 
Quote:

Yann Golanski wrote:
Tomiki sensei always kept his Aikido and Judo separate. There were no techniques from one passing into the other.

The only technique that I was told was inspired by judo is gedan ate. However, to me it looks like what a koshinage -- at least that's how I make it work. Not sure if that's correct though...

Lets look at principle not technique and there is more in common than you think.
aigamae ate and shomen ate:share the some priciple as the first technique from Judo Itsutsu no kata and tai the first technique from koshiki no kata.
gyakugamae ate: kodaore 7th technique Judo koshiki no kata
gedan ate: uchi kudaki 8th technique koshiki no kata
ushiro ate: ryokuhi and shikoro dori 3rd and 11th techniques of koshiki no kata
There are many others hiki taoshi for example. Tomiki Sensei in his teachings on the modernisation of Ju Jutsu classified Ju jutsu technique into four catogories:
1.Atemi Waza
2.Kansetsu Waza
3.Nage Waza
4.Katamae Waza
In Judo we practice Nage waza and Katamae waza in Aikido we practice Atemi waza and Kansetsu waza. And he personally said to my sensei that there is about a 30% crossover between Judo and Aikido.And to quote Tomiki Sensei from his book Judo appendix Aikido "Aiki means making your spirit fit in with your opponent's. After all it means the samething as the principle of gentleness (Ju), for it is an explanation of the priciple from within."


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