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Steve Morabito 01-04-2006 12:04 PM

Gokyo-why?
 
We practiced Gokyo this week with Uke using a tanto and a yokomen strike. It becomes apparent why one would use Gokyo as opposed to, say, Ikkyo in this situation. (Gokyo splints Uke's wrist and the weapon is immobilized and out of the way.) Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice? Why? Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly? From what attack forms do you practice it? Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve

Neil Mick 01-04-2006 01:08 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Steve Morabito wrote:
Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice?

IMO, this is the wrong question. Is sankyo "better" than ikkyo?

It is better to think of these forms as organic movements that lead from one to the other. Try practicing shomenuchi ikkyo, blending into nikkyo, then sankyo, all the way through the progressive movements into gokyo, to see what I mean.

Quote:

Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly?
Certain movements go in and out of "fashion." Gokyo isn't demonstrated much, which (IMO) is a pity.

Quote:

From what attack forms do you practice it?
Any attack.

Quote:

Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve
Yes, it does. Wait till you learn rokyo! ;)

RebeccaM 01-04-2006 02:54 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo and rokyo are "better" when there's a blade involved simply because you're less likely to get your fingers sliced, but as far as effectiveness goes they're all equal. Some might be easier to get into from a particular attack (ie, it's much faster and easier to apply a nikkyo to someone who's got you by the lapel than it it is to apply yonkyo), but if you do the technique right the result is the same: your attacker is not attacking you anymore.

Devon Natario 01-04-2006 04:13 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo is one of my favorites. I try to use this in lessons at least bi-weekly.

Mato-san 01-05-2006 05:36 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
I like all the "Kyos" simple because they are like the iceing on the cake that you build. "Cake" being the technique of course and depending on the cake ,you may choose the most sufficient iceing to complement the complete product!...I like that!

Charles Cunningham 01-05-2006 09:16 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
I use gokyo as a backup for nikyo, in case a strong uke gives me an unbendable wrist (although sankyo and yonkyo are also good henkawaza). During a sliding hand switch from ikkyo, if I feel strong resistance to a wrist bend, I continue to slide round to the forearm to catch gokyo. Besides, the gokyo pin helps increase uke's wrist flexibility for the next nikyo.

James Davis 01-05-2006 11:31 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo is also useful when the attacker grabs someone else. ;)

Rod Yabut 01-05-2006 05:14 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Why not? I'm not sure if I've mindfully setup myself to do gokyo/rokyo, but I think they are great techniques to use as a crutch in the course of henkawaza. Sometimes iikyo slips and you have to use something else.

SmilingNage 01-05-2006 05:42 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo gets covered alot when testing comes rolling around. In the usaf, 2nd kyu and above will have to demonstrate it in their tests.
Usually gotten from a shomen or yokomen attack. I think the pin is really effective and painful.

xuzen 01-05-2006 07:31 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Go-kyo helps numerically challenged aikido-ka to learn how to count to at least 5. :D

batemanb 01-06-2006 03:14 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Xu Wenfung wrote:
Go-kyo helps numerically challenged aikido-ka to learn how to count to at least 5. :D


5-kyo? :D

Jorx 01-07-2006 03:36 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo is only type of wristlock I have ever seen pulled off in BJJ/submissiongappling tourneys.

Aikilove 01-07-2006 06:49 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Wrist lock? How do you get this to a lock? For me it's more a wrist/forearm control.. There is no twisting motion on the wrist in gokyo when I do it (I mean it's like ikkyo but with the wrist hand under the wrist, palm up, compared with over the wrist palm down.). Maybe in the end of a knife disarm where one pushes the wrist down to the mat and lift the elbow (kind of chicken-wing like). Is this what you mean?

Gokyo - sometimes called ude nobashi (i.e. arm stretching)

/J

eyrie 01-07-2006 09:00 PM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
I think Jorgen means Mao de Vaca (cowhand). Another variation is commonly known as the "gooseneck". Soto makikomi from a gooseneck. Nasty!!

Jorx 01-08-2006 08:00 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Yes I was taught this was the final pin of gokyo - gooseneck. Initial control being sort of "reverse ikkyo" and when pinned on ground then the lock.

ian 01-09-2006 07:54 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Saito shows in one of his videos how someone with a knife (blade prtruding from little finger end) produce nikkyo on nage when you attempt ikkyo; blade goes over nages wrist to the outside.

Goykyo prevents this - however I think it is mechanically slightly worse as the thumb rather than the hand may get more pressure from the downward attack (thumb being weaker) if you are not careful or blending well.

Also gokyo tends to be done with the blade to your left slightly - by directing with non grabbing hand (so you are not underneath it and thus get don't killed if you miss). If you do this with ikkyo it is weaker and it often exposes your rib cage beneath the grabbing hand (since it produces something more like a karate block).

Practically, 60% of people attacked with knives don't realise until after the attack. Also, any skilled knife-fighter will conceal the weapon and probably strike you first with their other fist (or grab you). Thus I hate to seperate weapon from unarmed responses (aikido rarely does seperate them).

Although ikkyo and irimi-nage (I believe) are the very core of aikido, all the techniques are part of one whole. Removing it would be like removing kokyu-nage. From something like a shoulder grab, it can sometimes be more convenient to go for a nikkyo, but if the arm locks out and the hand releases this can easily flow into a gokyo.

I certainly think all the individual technique practise is just so we don't get shocked when the techniques spontaneously appear from free-style (blending) aikido practise.

Lee Mulgrew 01-20-2006 03:52 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Jakob Blomquist wrote:
Wrist lock? How do you get this to a lock? For me it's more a wrist/forearm control.. There is no twisting motion on the wrist in gokyo when I do it (I mean it's like ikkyo but with the wrist hand under the wrist, palm up, compared with over the wrist palm down.). Maybe in the end of a knife disarm where one pushes the wrist down to the mat and lift the elbow (kind of chicken-wing like). Is this what you mean?

Gokyo - sometimes called ude nobashi (i.e. arm stretching)

/J

it is is a wrist lock because if you have your hand placed so that the middle finger is placed along the line where the uke's hand and wrist meet you can tilt your hand and imobilise their hand (it can also be quite painful if you have a strong grip!) this is very useful for stopping them 'waggling' the knife about (their wrist is effectively locked in one immovable posistion!

Dazzler 01-20-2006 04:31 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Ian Dodkins wrote:
Saito shows in one of his videos how someone with a knife (blade prtruding from little finger end) produce nikkyo on nage when you attempt ikkyo; blade goes over nages wrist to the outside.

Goykyo prevents this - however I think it is mechanically slightly worse as the thumb rather than the hand may get more pressure from the downward attack (thumb being weaker) if you are not careful or blending well.

Also gokyo tends to be done with the blade to your left slightly - by directing with non grabbing hand (so you are not underneath it and thus get don't killed if you miss). If you do this with ikkyo it is weaker and it often exposes your rib cage beneath the grabbing

hand (since it produces something more like a karate block)..

This agrees pretty much with how I've been taught. The turning of the wrist enables a blade to be turned away from tori. This allows the execution of ikkyo style tenkan (whatever variation floats your boat) while keeping the business end of any weapon away from Tori.

Quote:

Ian Dodkins wrote:
Practically, 60% of people attacked with knives don't realise until after the attack. Also, any skilled knife-fighter will conceal the weapon and probably strike you first with their other fist (or grab you). Thus I hate to seperate weapon from unarmed responses (aikido rarely does seperate them).

Although ikkyo and irimi-nage (I believe) are the very core of aikido, all the techniques are part of one whole. Removing it would be like removing kokyu-nage. From something like a shoulder grab, it can sometimes be more convenient to go for a nikkyo, but if the arm locks out and the hand releases this can easily flow into a gokyo.

I certainly think all the individual technique practise is just so we don't get shocked when the techniques spontaneously appear from free-style (blending) aikido practise.

I'm sure this has been covered aplenty.....but a skilled knife user will if they seriously mean to use it, impale you while smiling in your face. There will be no warning.

A mugger will most likely show you the blade to get your wallet...no need to get themselves all messy with your blood after all.

Which leaves untrained attackers inflamed by emotion flailing about with weapons and putting themselves and everyone about in danger.

In this case you might get to see the weapon and make a more conscious choice of response.

Of course in life there is no black and white and not everyone easily falls into the categories above...I'll suggest a sensible bottom line is don't fool yourself into thinking dojo practice makes you able to work against a knife. It may give you an edge (pun intented!) on an untrained attacker especially if he is unaware of your secret talents ...(dodgy cross reference to other thread on secret aikido by bokken carrier with a kamiza on his desk :confused: ). But all it does is improve the ratio....a 99% chance you will live still leaves a 1% chance you won't. ( ( :) x 99 or :dead: x 1)

So who's for russian roulette with a revover with 100 barrels? ;)

I think this line of thinking is behind our treatment of gokyo as a primarily ura technique. Who in their right mind would go forward onto a blade ? far better to just walk away if the option exists.

I agree with Ian that techniques should have same base whether with or without weapons...minor adjustments will be required just as are found when changing from yokomen to shomen for instance. But essentially its all the same.


Friday musings over...dissect at your leisure.

D

grondahl 01-20-2006 05:40 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
If uke has a strong forward wrist I don't want to do the appropriate nikyo-henka then find it much easier to slide in to rokkyo than gokyo. And with rokkyo I mean the aikido version of waki gatame.

Johan Nielsen 01-25-2006 03:25 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Steve Morabito wrote:
We practiced Gokyo this week with Uke using a tanto and a yokomen strike. It becomes apparent why one would use Gokyo as opposed to, say, Ikkyo in this situation. (Gokyo splints Uke's wrist and the weapon is immobilized and out of the way.) Are there other situations or attack forms where Gokyo appears to be the "better" choice? Why? Are folks practicing Gokyo regularly? From what attack forms do you practice it? Does Gokyo have the same value as other immobilizations?
Thanks,
Steve

The ikkyu and gokyu and of course quite similar. But they are used in slightly different situations. In this case (tanto + yokomen strike) depending on how the attacker are actually holding the knife. If the blade is pointing upwards to his thumb, a ikkyu could just as well. But if the blade is pointing downwards towards the little finger, a gokyu is better, as you don't cut yourself on the blade just as easyly. You can control his hand better and stay safer. I believe Ian expalined it pretty well.

ChrisHein 10-20-2006 12:48 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
I've been thinking about gokyo quite a bit lately, and really I don't think I get it. Either it has never been explained to me properly (or some how I've failed to understand it in all the years I've been doing it), or it is kind of a lost technique or it's quite simply lame.

Here's what I can tell is different about gokyo then Ikkyo,

1. Your hand is palm up when you are applying it as oppose to palm down.
2. You only do ura movements when doing gokyo (Don't ask me why)
3. There is a different pin.

That's it, that's all I can see that's different from Ikkyo. I think I must be missing something. I've talk with other Aikidoka about it, people who should be in the know, but they are either as mystified as myself, or they have some silly reason, that doesn't make since to me.

One of the big questions about the whole thing for me is, the basic Iwama form for Katate dori Ikkyo, is done with the hand in the same position as gokyo (palm up), but it's not called gokyo, it's called ikkyo. Making it ever more confounding, is the fact that that form (katate dori ikkyo) is really a model form for ikkyo, but other then the fact that the pin is different and there is an omote as well as ura, it might as well be gokyo.

Another problem I have is; if the pin, and the hand position make a big enough difference to make a different form (from ikkyo to gokyo), then why aren't there more forms for nikyo? I mean I can do Nikyo on my shoulder, I can do it cross handed, or I can do it same handed, yet they are all Nikkyos. There are several different pins for sankyo, and kotegaishi, but they don't get different names just because they have different pins.

I simply don't get it. Does anyone out there have any different information about gokyo, besides the whole knife thing, I really think there has to be more to it then that.

-Chris Hein

grondahl 10-20-2006 01:20 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
But Toris grip of uke in katate dori ikkyo and any gokyo differs, atleast in all versions I have seen.

ian 10-20-2006 05:12 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Gokyo is primarily from a weapon (usually knife) attack. Saito shows on one of his vids that traditional ikkyo with a knife, if it gets stuck, allows them to do a nikyo on you with the blade(!).

The reason I think it 'appears' to be ura (I wouldn't like to say this is always the case) is that generally with a knife attack you just want to get out the way!

I tend not to seperate gokyo from ikkyo too much (60% of people do not realise they have been in a knife attack until afterwards). I suppose the main thing is the real entering into the elbow and off centeredness to protect yourself.

Ian

odudog 10-20-2006 09:13 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Quote:

Chris Hein wrote:
....Here's what I can tell is different about gokyo then Ikkyo,

1. Your hand is palm up when you are applying it as oppose to palm down.
2. You only do ura movements when doing gokyo (Don't ask me why)
3. There is a different pin.

That's it, that's all I can see that's different from Ikkyo. I think I must be missing something. I've talk with other Aikidoka about it, people who should be in the know, but they are either as mystified as myself, or they have some silly reason, that doesn't make since to me.

One of the big questions about the whole thing for me is, the basic Iwama form for Katate dori Ikkyo, is done with the hand in the same position as gokyo (palm up), but it's not called gokyo, it's called ikkyo. Making it ever more confounding, is the fact that that form (katate dori ikkyo) is really a model form for ikkyo, but other then the fact that the pin is different and there is an omote as well as ura, it might as well be gokyo.

Another problem I have is; if the pin, and the hand position make a big enough difference to make a different form (from ikkyo to gokyo), then why aren't there more forms for nikyo? I mean I can do Nikyo on my shoulder, I can do it cross handed, or I can do it same handed, yet they are all Nikkyos. There are several different pins for sankyo, and kotegaishi, but they don't get different names just because they have different pins....-Chris Hein

1. Yes. That is the diffrence.
2. There is omote as well. Aikido is ambidextrous so all techniques have omote and ura.
3. Yes, as you already noted.

The Iwama video might be a mistake. Depending on how you remove uke's hand will determine if you have ikkyo, nikkyo, or kotegaeshi.

You can do nikkyo in several different ways but they all have the ever important "Z" so they are all nikkyo. We all know how the wrist is supposed to be twised to do a sankkyo. Don't look for the differences in the pin, instead look for the commanilities within the pin. Once you see this, then you will see why the technique is still called nikkyo or sankkyo etc....

ChrisHein 10-21-2006 01:54 AM

Re: Gokyo-why?
 
Mike,
wise people know that they don't know, what they don't know.


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