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shiroisaru 12-24-2005 05:21 PM

Iriminage Question
 
Hello everyone! I pray that you are all having a very merry Christmas!

I have a question about iriminage. The question is about the direction that I should throw in.

I have been to two classes and studied the iriminage done by each. One of the teacher's , my regular sensei, is a shodan. The other is a 6th degree shodan.

In my regular class, I have done the entering motion just fine and I get the head going up. While doing all of this, I follow my fingers the whole way through and place my outside hand on the back of uke to keep uke from moving out of the throw. Up to this point I am fine.

However after this, I throw uke to my inside. I am sorry for my poor word choice but it is hard to describe. I watched but the sensei and 6th degree shodan throw uke to the inside, more or less to the side of tori whose hand is placed on the back of uke. I have watched carefully and seen them do this several times.

When I do the technique the same way as I believe I have seen it, I feel a lot of power in the throw and it is very easy to throw the person.

However a student that has been doing Aikido for a few months more than me told me I was wrong and that I hould throw uke to the outside because if I don't, uke can drag me down with him. After watching this, the sensei agreed with him.

However when I did the technique the way that they suggested, I felt little if no power in the throw meaning it was much more difficult for me to throw the person because there is little or no twisting motion of the hips the way they told me to do it.

More over, When I am Uke, I have a bad habbit of grabbing on to Tori when I am being thrown. It is my natural reflex. Thus saying this, No matter what technique you do, their is potentional to be grabbed and brought down with the throw. However this is why having a good posture in Aikido is so vital to the art.

When the Student tried to take me down when doing iriminage the way in which he said I was doing it wrong, he tried to take me down but couldn't because my posture was as it should be.

What I want to know is if you believe I am doing it wrong and if I am, how can I make it easier to throw him. The way I orginally did it, I had no problem throwing people and allow they said I could be brought to the ground, when they tested it they couldn't bring me down because of my posture.

What do you guys think?

Again, Merry Christmas!!!!

God Bless you!

Qatana 12-24-2005 05:38 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
I believe you should do what your sensei says to do. Another student with a "few months"ore than you probably doesn't know any better than you do.
And It sounds to me, and I don't 'read written technique well" that you Are doing it right.
Many people have trouble doing iriminage on me, as I am a trained dancer and have very good balance. Even sensei, one day. So he yonkyo'd me instead...

shiroisaru 12-24-2005 05:49 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
Thanks Jo.

Let me clear up my echnique a little bit. The way I do the throw for iriminage is that lets say my rightarm is under uke's chin and I am pushing up. I would then throw him in front of me. I feel a lot of power in the direction. However I have been told by my sensei and another student that I should throw him off center and to the right direction. When I watch sensei do it though, I see him do it the same way I did it and I feel no power when throwing the latter way either.

Thanks in advance!

Qatana 12-24-2005 06:23 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
I don't know. We throw in front of us. As far as I knoe, you should always try to throw in a straight line in front of you or we would all be catching each others' ukes, wouldn't we? Seems that throwing to the side would also break a connection too soon.
But I'm really not a "technical-verbal" person, so sooner or later someone who can verbalise will answer your question!

kokyu 12-24-2005 07:37 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
To quote Shioda Sensei's Total Aikido (pp 125), "As you advance forward with the right foot along the diagonal line to uke's rear..."

If you have a chance to look at the book, it has very clear 'top view' pictures of tori and uke. Uke ends up falling more towards the 'outside' as tori enters towards the 'dead corner' of uke.

I think the other Student is referring to directly facing uke and entering, rather than moving in a diagonal behind uke. If you are looking at uke face-to-face and enter, it is much easier for uke to pull you down with him. Uke also ends up falling more towards the inside or directly in front of tori (which can be dangerous).

I hope this helps.

I'm returning a favor that someone else did for me in another thread about iriminage :)

senshincenter 12-24-2005 08:40 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
My technique holds the diagonal to be accurate - same with (what I think you are saying) with "throwing inside." That is to say, the throw happens on a diagnol - really on a figure 8. However, let me also say the check on the reversal is not really located in the angle one eventually enters with. It is more found in the kuzushi (i.e. continuous and not including any reverse motion), the maai (i.e. tight and gets tighter through the throw), the timing (i.e. having uke's forward progress be the main engine for the throw), and the handwork (i.e. which locks the neck so that the kuzushi takes away directional harmony from uke's - the attacker's - motion). Of course, other elements are relevant but these are the more dominant ones - architecturally speaking.

dmv

justin 12-25-2005 04:25 AM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
i have been taught that a potential attacker landing on the inside would have a golden oppurtunity to attack your groin so the uke should land to the outside of your leading leg.

you say
"When the Student tried to take me down when doing iriminage the way in which he said I was doing it wrong, he tried to take me down but couldn't because my posture was as it should be."

i had this problem and my sensei broke my movements down and it appears i was not braking the balance enough with the neck control slighly leaned more into my chest as i move forward this problem went away.

shiroisaru 12-25-2005 10:20 AM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
Hey thanks a lot for all your quick replies. I will study your tips and see if I can work my technique into it! Thanks again!

meri kurisumasu and
akimashite omedetou!!!!

Happy new year!

senshincenter 12-25-2005 10:28 AM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
I should also add to what I listed above: the entire throw happens from the back of uke - not from the front. This also helps prevent the counter.

On the counter coming from the ground (after the throw): it's a bit difficult to counter when the back of your head is caved in; and if the technique was to continue tactically, stomping the front of someone's head to match the back of their head (being caved in) is going to be a lot easier for nage to do than it is for uke to reach up and flick at nage's groin from his/her semi-conscious state.

my opinion,
dmv

darin 12-25-2005 11:13 AM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
You could try it this way: When you step in and spin, apply pressure with your middle finger to the pressure point under your opponents ear lobe while you pull his head to your shoulder. Make sure that he is off balance (is on one foot and leaning towards you). Then before he can put his other foot down you spin in the opposite direction and wrap your arm around his neck tightly still keeping him on one leg and leaning towards you. Raise the elbow of the arm wrapped around his neck as if you were emptying a glass and push in the lower of his back with your other hand. This should cause his feet to come out and fall flat on his back.

Steven 12-25-2005 11:38 AM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
A 6th degree shodan?

Do you mean a 6th degree black belt or Rokudan?

shiroisaru 12-25-2005 12:42 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
6th degree black belt and rokudan both work =)
Sorry.

Merry Christmas!

odudog 12-27-2005 01:57 PM

Re: Iriminage Question
 
The foot work as you step to throw uke depends on the style of Aikido being practiced. I too have Shioda Sensei's books and dvds. They step diagonally behind uke as you do the last part of the iriminage. On my dvd, I also see that nage is applying a hip check to uke since he is stepping at a diagonal and you literally see uke being projected to the side as he is going down. This is probably what the Sensei was telling you when he said that uke should land on the outside.

My dojo is Aikikai and we step straight as we perform the last part of the technique. Uke tends to land on the side of you not in front. However, you can make uke land in front of you if you tend to hook your arm towards your center as you are performing the last part of the technique.

Now, with that all said. I think you can do either one of the three throws to be correct, but, it is all predicated on whether uke has a friend with him or not and where that friend is located during your process of throwing uke. One of my instructors Aikido is more street oriented and he tends to have uke fall in front of him so that he can perform a full body osae. Which happens to be one of his favorite locks and I just happend to take 99.999% of ukemi from him when he teaches {not fun for the lock is extremely painful}.


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