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-   -   Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9454)

AikiWeb System 12-18-2005 12:30 AM

Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of December 18, 2005:

How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Critically helpful
  • Very helpful
  • Somewhat helpful
  • Not very helpful
  • Not at all helpful
Here are the current results.

SeiserL 12-18-2005 10:27 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
IMHO, the body doesn't speak a language in the auditor sense and if it does, its a very slow strategy. Therefore, most learning is more a see-do approach. So, critically helpful.

Mike Haftel 12-18-2005 11:23 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
I think this question is just plain ridiculous.

How helpful is visually examining techinque in aikido, how helpful is feeling a technique, how helpful is having a technique explained to you, how helpful is doing a technique yourself, how helpful is being thrown, how helpful is practice, how helpful is asking questions, etc....

Of course any of these are helpful.

Do these polls actually have a purpose?

Hypothetically, how would a person learn a throw if they never had it explained to them, never actually did it, never had it done to them, never felt it, never considered it, never whatever?

I'm not criticising you, I'm criticising these polls that pop up every once in a while. They are just invalid questions to begin with.

Pauliina Lievonen 12-18-2005 12:07 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
There are blind people doing aikido. So apparently seeing a technique done isn't absolutely necessary for learning it. So how important is it then?

I answered very helpful to this one, and critically helpful to feeling. To me, while of course seeing a technique helps learn the movements more quickly, I need to feel it to know what is actually going on between tori and uke.

kvaak
Pauliina

sullivanw 12-18-2005 05:34 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Hi all,

I voted 'somewhat helpful' because, although it is wonderful to see a technique demonstrated, I lose a lot in translation. It is one thing to observe another's movements and another thing to observe ones own movements - often the instructor will stop me and point out that I am doing *this*, but the presentation calls for *that*. Which is what I thought I was doing.... ahh well, that's why we train for years and years.

A somewhat related (slightly off topic) is that recently when thinking, 'I have to use my center', 'relax and be sticky', etc. and trying to actually do that, I have been told that I need to do exactly what I have been trying do do... which is a good reminder that I really have no idea what's going on at all!

Hmmm.... overall, I would place the observation of technique in a 'rough idea' category, while feeling technique is where we hone the details.

ESimmons 12-18-2005 09:01 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
I can imagine a blind person learning aikido. For this reason, I technically should have voted "very helpful."

However, I voted "critically helpful." Certainly, if I were running a dojo, I wouldn't waste anyone's time trying to teach a blind man aikido and would consider the ability to see essential to learning aikido at my dojo.

That may seem insensitive to some, but to me it's realistic. If I were to go blind today, I would stop training.

giriasis 12-18-2005 10:15 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
For myself, since I love watching videos and DVDs so I can examine the techniques I said very helpful.

Mary Eastland 12-19-2005 05:52 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

Eric Simmons wrote:
I can imagine a blind person learning aikido. For this reason, I technically should have voted "very helpful."

However, I voted "critically helpful." Certainly, if I were running a dojo, I wouldn't waste anyone's time trying to teach a blind man aikido and would consider the ability to see essential to learning aikido at my dojo.

That may seem insensitive to some, but to me it's realistic. If I were to go blind today, I would stop training.

Interesting observation. How could you possibly know how you would feel if you have no experience with this situation? Is your aikido only for the physically "perfect"?

We have a woman who is legally blind in our organization who is a second dan and and an iinstuctor with her own dojo.
Mary

ESimmons 12-19-2005 02:38 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

Mary Eastland wrote:
Interesting observation. How could you possibly know how you would feel if you have no experience with this situation? Is your aikido only for the physically "perfect"?

We have a woman who is legally blind in our organization who is a second dan and and an iinstuctor with her own dojo.
Mary

It's not really up for debate, but I understand there are blind aikidoka. Good for them.

MaryKaye 12-19-2005 05:18 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
When I trained in a "watch then duplicate" environment I found it very hard to learn anything. I may have gotten a bit better at this recently but only because I have learned to quickly describe to myself, in words, what I am seeing. If the technique is too unfamiliar for this to work, you can show it to me twenty times and I will still be clueless.

Interestingly, the "watch then duplicate" dojo had a blind student who reached shodan level. They normally avoid verbal description and the variant throws (important to their testing style) are just "kaitenage #1", "kaitenage #2" etc. For her they found it essential to give nicknames, so that one of the kaitenage became "walking the dog." After a year away from there I still remember "walking the dog" but have no idea about any of the other throws in that series. I really do think in words.

Mary Kaye

Janet Rosen 12-19-2005 10:40 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

Eric Simmons wrote:
It's not really up for debate, but I understand there are blind aikidoka. Good for them.

huh?
I've trained with blind folks--heck, I've taken a couple of classes taught by a blind aikidoka-- and don't understand why anybody would think it a problem.
Frankly, I find that sometimes having my eyes open gets in the way of really understanding the physics and the connection that is going on between me and my training partner.

billybob 12-20-2005 08:53 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Eric Simmons said, "....That may seem insensitive to some, but to me it's realistic. If I were to go blind today, I would stop training."

Don't stop training!!!!! Take your aiki rear and get thou to a judo school. Judoka will politely grip your collar and arm, and then beat you senseless. A nice bunch of people really. Being an old judoka, I frequently close my eyes to feel technique. Don't you close your eyes when you do kokyu tanden ho exercise? Try it!

It is amazing to me that we are wired to know when others are attractive, techniques look good, and we have consensus about these observations. When I watch Sensei I imagine doing the movements - this imagining process really works. Visualization is not just about whirled peas - it is an important part of training for me.

Dave

Niadh 12-20-2005 04:25 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Try Practicing blindfolded.
Hits are harder, but grabs and techniques I find I am much more focused and aware. While I do find visualizing helpful ( and voted somewhat) it is not the only way, and therefore -to me- not critically important

billybob 12-21-2005 04:04 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Niadh suggested "Try practicing blind folded."

Can't. My nose is too big, and has been broken too many times already.

When you train this way - do you know the attack, or is it a collar or wrist grab? I read 'strikes are harder' as - you get hit more.

Dave

aikidodragon 12-21-2005 04:30 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
I am so blind all i see is some movement color and light. So as you might guess watching does me no good. I am a member of the AWA and I am a fifth kue. I don't exactly know how it is spelled my screen reader miss pronounces it sorry. It is nice to know that a blind lady has a black belt I don't feel so alone now.

RebeccaM 12-21-2005 05:02 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Somewhat helpful. I have a diificult, if not impossible time learning anything physical just by watching. It's got nothing to do with the health of my eyes. It's just the way my brain is wired. I can watch. I can listen. But in the end I have to get up and try it and struggle.

Niadh 12-21-2005 07:58 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

David Knowlton wrote:
Niadh suggested "Try practicing blind folded."

Can't. My nose is too big, and has been broken too many times already.

When you train this way - do you know the attack, or is it a collar or wrist grab? I read 'strikes are harder' as - you get hit more.

Dave

Dave,
The attack is usually a grab. I have practiced strikes but it takes a real trust of Uke. the attack is prescribed, and uke states when they are going to strike. (picture the movie "Scent of a Woman")
Niadh

billybob 12-22-2005 07:53 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
I had exceptional vision as a teenager, and still have excellent color vision and perception of motion (and high hopes of healing the one problem remaining). But I have always felt that my eyes were easily fooled and my kinesthetic sense was not. "Knowing" what uke is going to do is a different discussion, but the visually impaired have as much or more ability to perceive as I.

Dave

aikidodragon 12-22-2005 10:04 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
For Eric Simmons why stop training just because the world goes dark? Some thing like 90 percent of your information comes from your eyes. Aikido is no different with out sight, yes I have to make adaptations but unless you knew I was blind you would never know by watching me practice. I do all my throws dynamicly and I participate in the weapons class just like every one else, and my sighted class mates have as many problems in that class as I do. The only differents is that they know what a strate line is and hit it most of the time. Also Mr. Simmons why not teach a blind person, it is that atitude that push us away. And the trueth is if Aikido does not work I do train in Judo and Jujitsu so its over for who ever attacks me any way.

billybob 12-22-2005 11:34 AM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Ms. Parson,

You sound formidable! Well, I won't challenge you to armwrestling as I would likely lose, but I think I might beat you in a spelling contest!

Dave

Tim Schmelter 12-22-2005 01:59 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

Mike Haftel wrote:
Do these polls actually have a purpose?

I can't speak for Jun, obviously, but since the question was about how important it is for you, I think the question is quite valid. Just about any reinforcement of a concept is valid; I suspect singing about aikido would be useful on some level. But some people learn differently than others, and this poll is an interesting examination of that.

--Tim

Janet Rosen 12-22-2005 05:35 PM

Re: Poll: How helpful is visually examining techniques in learning aikido for you?
 
Quote:

Tim Schmelter wrote:
Just about any reinforcement of a concept is valid; I suspect singing about aikido would be useful on some level.

absolutely!!!
sometimes one person will unwittingly make a sound effect -- like an airplane say as body turns--and a couple of us in earshot will hear it, giggle, then try it and darn if it doesn't help. don't know why, in terms of focus or neuro pathways, but yeah, words, tunes and sounds (if not so loud as to distract others! not talking about atemi here :-)) can be helpful.
suspect it is similar to the way singing along to music helps me "occupy" certain parts of my brain when I paint, freeing the part I need to do the painting.


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