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akiy 10-06-2005 08:50 AM

Yoseikan
 
Hi folks,

If any of you are practicing under the Yoseikan system, I was wondering...

Would you consider what you are practicing to be aikido? In other words, if someone walks through the door at your dojo and asks, "What kind of martial arts do you teach?", do you think your answer would be, "Aikido"?

-- Jun

Dominic Toupin 10-07-2005 03:38 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Here in Quebec, there is an organization that follows Yoseikan World Federation ( the composite martial system taught by Hiroo MOCHIZUKI in France) and another organization that teaches what Minoru Mochizuki called Yoseikan Budo or Yoseikan Aikido.

YWF included Yoseikan Aikido to their curriculum. The other organization Canadian Association of Aikido Mochizuki only teach Aikido and Katori Shinto-Ryu (kobudo).

I am shodan in the YWF and I will never claim that I am shodan in aikido because aiki techniques are mixed with some judo, some karate and some jiu-jitsu. The first YWF sensei in North America mostly came from other organization (karate, jiu-jitsu, judo and Yoseikan Aikido). So because of that, depending of your sensei background you will be better in judo or karate or aiki. So someone with a shodan in Yoseikan Budo is not a shodan in aikido, in judo, in jiu-jitsu and kobudo, he is a shodan in Yoseikan Budo the composite system.

I practice since September 2004 in CAAM and I have a background in aikido (aikikai) and of course I am shodan in YWF and I will say that the biggest difference with the other style of aikido is the study of the sutemi waza and the Katori Shinto-Ryu for the bokken part of the classes. The other technique are the same and I think that the difference is the way the techniques are done. Hiroo Mochizuki often called is father aikido a soft jiu-jitsu...

By the way, the name of the technique are different. I add some names to the aikiwiki Cross-style reference on techniques names...

In the Second Aikido Friendship demonstration DVD (Aikido Journal), there is a demonstration by Minoru Mochizuki student that show exactly what CAAM teach in their classes.

To answer the question. In my opinion, the aikido teach by CAAM is really aikido but in YWF, aikido is mixed with other arts so your are practicing Yoseikan Budo not aiki, judo, jiu-jitsu etc...

neb1979 10-11-2005 05:11 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
I have been training in Yoseikan for almost a year now and I would defiantly say that it is Aikido. There is incorporated into the training parts of Judo, Karate and Jujitsu but or core is Aikido (physical and spiritual). Our dojo isn't a member of the YWF but is a member of International Budo Seifukai Federation, IBSF.

:)

Dominic Toupin 10-11-2005 06:04 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
By the way, CAAM is the Canadian Association of Aikido Mochizuki...

darin 10-11-2005 01:46 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
In the dojo I teach at we do aikido. I am also a member of the YWF under Roy Hebden (technical director in Australia). I'd like to change everything over to YWF but my students don't want to do karate lol.

Devin McDowell 10-11-2005 02:01 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
I'd say its aikido.

neb1979 10-24-2005 01:40 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Jun,

Just wanted to say as well that I asked my Sensei the question and his answer was, "define Aikido". You cant really answer the question with out knowing what your interpretation of Aikido is. So my question is: can you define what you mean by Aikido?

Cheers :)

Robert Cheshire 02-14-2006 08:05 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Sorry to bring up an older topic, but, I happened upon it while doing a search for "Yoseikan."

My instructor has talked with Hiroo Mochizuki specifically about this. Master Hiroo's response was that his father's art should never have been called aikido. It is more of a soft jujitsu. I think that's what he called it. Regardless, he said it wasn't ever pure aikido. You also have to remember that Minoru left O-Sensei before the name was changed to aikido.

neb1979 02-14-2006 05:24 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Robert,

I train in Yoseikan Aikido but its not Yoseikan Budo. Its under International Budo Seifukai Federation one of Minoru Mochizuki's other son's and we don't incorperate all the other styles of martial arts into our training as much as Yoseikan Budo, so I would say that what we are training is in essence Aikido.

phil farmer 02-15-2006 08:19 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Greetings to all, I am the instructor Robert was referring to. I do get around because I know Darin Hyde, if only from the internet and Roy Hebden and I were in France together last summer.

With regard to the nature of Yoseikan, let me say a couple of things. First, my Shodan and Nidan certificates say aiki on one and jiujutsu on the other. At the time they were awarded, the U.S. Yoseikan curriculum covered both of those areas. That notion of awarding rank was changed a few years ago in YWF, now all Dan ranks read Yoseikan Budo. Shihan Mochizuki has wanted Yoseikan to be its own art for many years and this was a way of putting it all together. There is no more Yoseikan karate, aiki, jiujutsu,iai, etc. even though the test sheets still read in that way. Now, in YWF all are skills under Yoseikan Budo.

I was in a conversation with Shihan a couple of years ago and that is when he stated that he felt his father's work should never have been called aikido but "a soft jiujitsu". I believe that Shihan is correct only because the Yoseikan I was taught here in the U.S. was directly from the Hombu dojo and Dr. Glenn Pack's regular visits there. I guess you could argue the other way, that we are/were a very hard style of aiki. Go and visit an aikido dojo like Aikikai or Schools of Ueshiba and you will see a very different approach to the whole process.

I would like to toss one last thing in here. The Seifukai do not teach Yoseikan. They may teach principles that were taught by Minoru Mochizuki but they do not teach Yoseikan. The words Yoseikan were taken off of the building several years ago and O Sensei Mochizuki, before he died basically denounced the entire idea of the seifukai. Sorry if that hurts feelings, it is not intended to, only to clarify the position of Yoseikan World Federation with regard to what is called Yoseikan.

Phil Farmer
USYBA
YWF

justinmaceachern 02-15-2006 12:15 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
I dont understand the need for all these friggin organizations. Isnt any one else sick to there stomaches looking at all these organizations out there. Why are there so many. I was talking to someone the other night claiming that his style of aikido was harder then mine right. so i go and visit him at his school, and they were doing the exact same thing my school was doing. remember a rose by any other name is still a rose.

fanaraikido 02-15-2006 12:34 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Yoseikan-Budo Karate-Do. I don't think its Aikido it may have a move or two drawn from aikido but it's not its (karate) check out website. http://yoseikan.com.au/home.htm

Dominic Toupin 02-15-2006 09:44 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Quote:

Fanar Danial wrote:
Yoseikan-Budo Karate-Do. I don't think its Aikido it may have a move or two drawn from aikido but it's not its (karate) check out website. http://yoseikan.com.au/home.htm


I think that you didn't read the other post. The art of Minoru Mochizuki is called Yoseikan Aikido. Check www.yoseikanbudo.com or http://eric.campeau.com/aikipages/en/aiki_e.html.

The martial art developed by Hiroo Mochizuki is a composite art where student learn karate, aikido, jiu-jitsu and kobudo in one system called Yoseikan Budo. Check http://www.yoseikan-budo.org/

I have practiced in both systems and I can tell you that Yoseikan Aikido is really aikido or a soft jiu-jitsu like Mr Cheshire said. The system developed by Hiroo Mochizuki is not called Yoseikan Aikido but Yoseikan Budo. When you are a shodan in Yoseikan Budo, you are a shodan in Yoseikan Budo not in aikido by the way...

phil farmer 02-15-2006 10:10 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
There is a karate style that is Yoseikan Karate. My understanding is their konji for Yoseikan is different. They have been around a long time, have schools in a number of states and their origin was in Canada. I had forgotten about this group but I am familiar with them and to my knowledge they have never been associated with Mochizuki Sensei.

Phil Farmer

Dominic Toupin 02-16-2006 02:31 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
There is a Yoseikan Karaté-Do Federation here in Québec. They are not affiliated with YWF and their curriculum is mainly traditional karate but they also have integrated a jiu-jitsu curriculum. The president is Marc Asselin, 9th dan karate, 6th dan jiu-jitsu. By the way, Marc Asselin received his 5th dan in jiu-jitsu by Hiroo Mochizuki.

Almost all of the Yoseikan-Budo schools here in Quebec came from a separation of schools from Yoseikan Karate-Do to YWF in 1995-1996 but Yoseikan Karate-Do remains active as a federation with thirty dojo around Quebec and one in Côte-D'Ivoire Africa.

darin 02-17-2006 02:08 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Yoseikan Karate in Australia is headed by Branko Bratich 7th dan. He is under Sano-sensei who taught in the Yoseikan hombu in Shizuoka. Branko is the current Australian karate team coach. Roy Hebden used to teach Yoseikan karate under Unno Sensei but has changed to YWF.

I wonder what the future holds for the Yoseikan aikido instructors.

phil farmer 02-17-2006 08:10 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Darin,

Sorry to say but the future is not bright for older Yoseikan aikido instructors because there is no technical support. The seifukai will not provide it, which is one of the things that made the U.S. bond to YWF stronger, Patrick Auge will not accept anyone outside his own organization to train with them, not even in their clinics. There is a fellow in Italy but it is highly doubtful that he will provide support. The only other teacher I am even remotely aware of is Edgar Kruygar in the Netherlands and he is affiliated with YWF and sends his students to the world stage every year in France.

The bright side of it is, everything that was and is Yoseikan is contained in the YWF curriculum. Nothing has been lost, some things have changed, and in most cases, the higher ranked teachers of Yoseikan are better at aiki and jiujitsu than the instructors at Hombu dojo are. This last is from students and teachers who have seen both groups in action and based on the times the two groups have interacted.

darin 02-19-2006 04:17 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Phil,

Good to hear from you again on aikiweb.

I think what will happen or is already happening is that the old aikido instructors will create their own styles or join up with another style of aikido. Its a matter of accepting the situation and moving on.

Dominic Toupin 02-24-2006 08:40 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Quote:

Phil Farmer wrote:

The bright side of it is, everything that was and is Yoseikan is contained in the YWF curriculum. Nothing has been lost, some things have changed, and in most cases, the higher ranked teachers of Yoseikan are better at aiki and jiujitsu than the instructors at Hombu dojo are. This last is from students and teachers who have seen both groups in action and based on the times the two groups have interacted.

Here in Quebec, in the CAAM group under Roger Roy sensei. we practice Katori Shinto-Ryu (kobudo and iaido) and the Iaido of Minoru Mochizuki. I don't think that YWF retained the Katori Shinto-Ryu part in the training.

Also, when you listen to the 2nd Aikido Friendship Demonstration, you saw Mochizuki's student doing a kata called Ken Tai Ichi (sorry for the misspelling). I practice this kata and I think that it was the essence of what Yoseikan is (bokken vs bokken, same techniques bokken vs bare hand, same technique, bare hand vs bare hand). I remember that in YWF, that kata is not part of the curriculum.

Mr. Farmer, do yout think that the curriculum taugh in CAAM is a curriculum that just not move on ?

phil farmer 02-27-2006 01:45 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Dominic,

We still do ken tai ichi no kata here in the u.s. for the same reason. Shihan Hiroo has added a kata later in the curriculum of YWF that is, in essence, a revision of the same. Dr. Pack, Pat Saiz Sensei and I have been involved in teaching the shime waza kata and the kansetsu waza kata the last two years in France, so there is some retention of the old katas, etc. I agree that the katori and iai that we still do in the u.s. are not like the iai that Shihan does, but we have discovered that our curriculum makes us fit in well to what they are learning in YWF.

I am familiar with Roy Sensei and also Martin Sensei (sp?) and their work. In my opinion I would agree that they are using a curriculum that has not moved on. Nothing wrong with that in any way, it just isn't progressive and who will push the curriculum forward. The old hombu dojo is gone and the seifukai folks, from what I recently heard from one of our instructors who was uchi deshi there ten years ago and just visited, are barely working out enough to keep the dojo there open. My experience in our transition to the YWF approach is that, truly all of the throws, locks, etc are still there. some of the iai and ken are different but usually more effective. Shihan spends a lot of time focusing on efficiency and effectiveness and this is why he dropped the old ken tai ichi, it just was not practical in a modern world. but, that does not mean it isn't great history and foundation. I drill my students on it every saturday for at least 45 minutes and then do the old suwari iai and tachi iai before moving on to the YWF iai. we still do itsusu and nanatsu and a couple of others.

Shihan doesn't mind if we keep those, he just wants us to learn their approach. i have seen the top instructors and I am adamant that they are the very best at getting to the throws and locks and strangles from very efficient and modern atemi entries.

hope this helps, sorry to be long winded.

Phil Farmer

Aiki LV 02-27-2006 04:10 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
"Yoseikan Budo or Yoseikan Aikido is the composite martial art developed by Minoru Mochizuki, who first taught it at his dojo in Shizuoka in 1931. This style of Aikido incorporates elements of the pre-war Aiki Budo of Morihei Ueshiba........." [QUOTE] Taken from yoseikanbudo.com

Just a question.... how can this be aikido when the leader didn't even train in aikido. It specifically states PRE-WAR AIKI BUDO that is not the same as aikido. There is a distinction, which in my opinion is spelled out clearly. Please don't be offended and think I'm trying to somehow say one system is better than the other here. I think both are valid, just not the same thing. I'm simply pointing out that there is a difference. If I train in Aiki-budo that does not equal aikido, just as training in aikido does not equal aiki-budo.

darin 02-27-2006 10:52 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Hi Dominic,

I still teach the old Yoseikan aikido and iai katas. Unfortunately I never learnt the katori shinto ryu kenjutsu katas as Unno Sensei only taught those after 2nd or 3rd dan. I have a photocopy of Mochizuki's book (slowly getting scanned into pdf) and it has all the sword katas.

As Phil says, there is nothing wrong with teaching the old curriculum. My advice is to just use it as a base. Although we learn the traditional curriculum we don't do techniques traditionally. If we find a better way to do something we change. That is Yoseikan!

PeterR 02-27-2006 11:20 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Quote:

Mindy Imbuido wrote:
[i]Just a question.... how can this be aikido when the leader didn't even train in aikido. It specifically states PRE-WAR AIKI BUDO that is not the same as aikido. There is a distinction, which in my opinion is spelled out clearly. Please don't be offended and think I'm trying to somehow say one system is better than the other here. I think both are valid, just not the same thing. I'm simply pointing out that there is a difference. If I train in Aiki-budo that does not equal aikido, just as training in aikido does not equal aiki-budo.

When the name change occured to Aikido (and it was sort of imposed from outside sources) Ueshiba M. awarded several of his pre-war students advanced Dan ranks in Aikido.

A name is sometimes just a name.

I don't do Yoseikan but the feeling I get is that the site is trying to make a distinction between the type of practice that Ueshiba engaged in before and after the war. It really depends on who you talk to but some consider the pre-war Ueshiba far more interesting than post. It was certainly the former period where he gained fame and was able to attract some of his more (again a matter of opinion) interesting students.

phil farmer 02-28-2006 07:43 AM

Re: Yoseikan
 
I like the comments of everyone about Yoseikan being aikido. Truth is, Minoru Mochizuki was pre war so it was more aiki bujutsu (or several other names) and not the modern aikido we think of today. That is because Minoru Sensei trained with Ueshiba very early.

His son, Hiroo Mochizuki says that his father's style should have been called a soft jiujitsu instead. Now, Hiroo Mochizuki trained with Ueshiba for several years in the 50's and you can see the difference between father and son based on when they trained with Ueshiba.

Both father and son learned from touring Europe and taking on all comers in matches, that aiki did not work all the time in all the situations, that was the inspiration for the continuing creation of Yoseikan based on atemi, judo, aiki,jiujitsu, etc. to be effective in all situations. Interestingly, people from many martial arts are cross training, Yoseikan has been doing it since 1931.

Also, Minoru Mochizuki was awarded the rank of 10th Dan in Aiki with the express permission of the Ueshiba family.

Phil Farmer

Gustaf Rydevik 03-01-2006 02:09 PM

Re: Yoseikan
 
Just a quick question regarding the syllabus of yoseikan aikido. I hope you don't mind.
Over at wikipedia, there's a short article about yoseikan, where it says that Yoseikan Aikido is one of
the few styles to have "Ura Waza" or counter techniques preserved.
Is this the same as what we in aikikai call henka waza, or is it something else that is practiced?

Best

Gustaf


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