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-   -   Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)? (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8967)

AikiWeb System 09-25-2005 12:30 AM

Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
AikiWeb Poll for the week of September 25, 2005:

How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
  • I don't do aikido
  • Perfectly effective
  • Very effective
  • Somewhat effective
  • Not very effective
  • Not at all effective
Here are the current results.

Amir Krause 09-25-2005 09:22 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
I answered 'Not at all effective' but I assumed the study is only visual, without any teacher at all.

Using these elements as an addition is a totally different issue.


Amir

Rupert Atkinson 09-25-2005 03:48 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
If you wish to become a 10th Dan very quickly then, by what I see on the internet, it is a very effective method. It all depends on what your goals are :crazy:

Sanshouaikikai 09-25-2005 09:24 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
I think Aikido is just one of those intricate and difficult styles that one has to learn in person. However, this is coming from a guy who has never trained with a video...let alone an aikido one! lol...however...I do own a lot of books and magazines and have been able to pick up stuff from such sources. Like Rupert said..."it depends on what your goals are."

SeiserL 09-26-2005 07:57 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
IMHO, learning tools such as video/DVD are great as a supplement, but will never replace the feel of a live uke or the eyes of a competent teacher.

tedehara 09-26-2005 08:49 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVD
 
The important thing is the person who is viewing the material and what their goals are. If the person has no Aikido training and is hoping to completely learn the art through films/videos, then it is useless. If the person is training in Aikido and is using the material to deepen understanding or expand their repertoire, then it could be very useful. The same experience can effect people differently.

Dan Herak 09-26-2005 09:56 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Videos are useful if they supplement actual practice. But the question refers to learning aikido only through visual means. Trying to learn aikido solely through visual means is like trying to experience actual sex by watching porno movies.

John Boswell 09-26-2005 12:40 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Only by video? No good. But in the hands of a competent instructor, they will pick up things on videos that many other will miss.

My instructor tells us a story about when he was injured and could not train. He would watch aikido videos and watch them frame by frame. Hand position, footwork, angles of entry... so much did he gain from doing this that he can spot mistakes we make that are so subtle... and fix them before we develop bad habits.

Video is a good medium. You can watch the same thing over and over and pick up something new almost everytime. It has value, but is certainly NOT the sole teacher by any means.

akiy 09-26-2005 12:52 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVD
 
Hi folks,

I just found an interesting article on "mirror neuron systems" which may prove interesting to folks participating and/or reading this thread:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/science.../01-resup.html

-- Jun

mjhacker 09-26-2005 01:04 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVD
 
You can learn more of Aikido by being physically connected to a competent instructor with your eyes closed that you ever will by watching alone, regardless of the medium.

All senses are vital to the educational process, and as many as possible should be engaged at all times. You need to develop the proper set of eyes to see what is REALLY going on, but the only way to do this is by feeling, seeing, hearing, tasting, and smelling it. Only then with the "dai rokkan" kick in.

But since your question stipulated "purely," my answer has to be a big fat :-p~

aikigirl10 09-26-2005 02:14 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
If all you are relying on is Dvds books and stuff like that to learn aikido then i would defintely answer "not at all effective" If you are using these as a visual aid to help you better understand what your sensei is teaching then i would say go for it.

But i think its ridiculous to try to learn something physical from watching a tape, whether it be aikido , judo, tae kwon do , or ballet for that matter.

Rupert Atkinson 09-26-2005 04:24 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVD
 
Quote:

Jun Akiyama wrote:
Hi folks,

I just found an interesting article on "mirror neuron systems" which may prove interesting to folks participating and/or reading this thread:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/science.../01-resup.html

-- Jun

Very interesting - from the article:
Quote:

"Our findings suggest that once the brain has learned a skill, it may simulate the skill without even moving, through simple observation," says UCL's Patrick Haggard. "An injured dancer might be able to maintain his skill despite being temporarily unable to move, simply by watching others dance." Similarly, by understanding how the mirror neuron system works, doctors may be able to better rehabilitate people whose motor skills were damaged by stroke.—Peter Tyson
So, once experienced, the suggestion is that watching can even help learn, or at least stay in tune, or at the very least - better than nothing. Better start watching those Ueshiba vids again ...

senshincenter 09-26-2005 05:03 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
On a slightly related topic - what about this one...

What about suggesting that one cannot learn Aikido from a video AT ALL, but having no problem suggesting (i.e. acting thusly) that one can tell how bad a person sucks, how much their practice is missing, how ignorant they are to the deeper issues of the art, how bad their teacher is, etc., simply by reading something they wrote on the Internet? Where does all the "you got to feel it to truly know" stuff go then?

Rupert Atkinson 09-26-2005 06:36 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
I guess that is touching on the 'critic' within us all. You know, like 'we' know better than the football coaches.

senshincenter 09-26-2005 07:22 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Hi Rupert,

I imagine you are right.

Speaking generally...

However, wouldn't it be nice if we could show some consistency in this matter - waiting to feel someone's Aikido before we made such efforts and took such pleasure in noting how much more we know and/or how much more we can do than others?

It makes me wonder, this inconsistency, if we don't just say how one must FEEL Aikido, in this place where no mat could ever exist, so that we can belittle another via some sort of conventional wisdom, rather than seeing what parts we share in union (they in us and us in them).

It's like this conventional wisdom, because it is conventional and thus commonly accepted, and therefore somewhat legitimate, allows us to feel legitimate, justified, and thus commonly accepted when we act so spiritually immature and go against the very conventional wisdom we claim to be in line with.

I imagine if we could have a heart/mind that was capable of disciplining itself into waiting to feel another's Aikido before making any kind of judgment, we would have a heart/mind capable of not needing to belittle another's current place on the Path. Somehow, I imagine, the two go together, just as the inconsistency in conventional wisdom goes with a kind of spiritual immaturity.

Just musing about,
dmv

billybob 09-27-2005 10:35 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
I looked for a link, but found none. I'll relate a study done a few decades ago:

College basketball team split - one group physically trained, one group visualized under coaches direction - same regimen as physical team. The 'mind only' team got better as measured by their physical skill level.

My physical therapist, who has studied neurology in depth suggested I get video of the master in my martial art. He said that if I make an 'efferent image' and repeat this over and over in my mind I will develop the skill I am imaging. 'Efferent' refers to nerves that carry signals from the brain, in this case to my muscles.

I have improved. FWIW

Dave

Sanshouaikikai 09-27-2005 12:14 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Quote:

David Knowlton wrote:
I looked for a link, but found none. I'll relate a study done a few decades ago:

College basketball team split - one group physically trained, one group visualized under coaches direction - same regimen as physical team. The 'mind only' team got better as measured by their physical skill level.

My physical therapist, who has studied neurology in depth suggested I get video of the master in my martial art. He said that if I make an 'efferent image' and repeat this over and over in my mind I will develop the skill I am imaging. 'Efferent' refers to nerves that carry signals from the brain, in this case to my muscles.

I have improved. FWIW

Dave

Whoa! Sounds like something from the Matrix, lol. It makes sense though.

Pauliina Lievonen 09-27-2005 05:20 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
The only thing I would add to this is that you will only be able to get as far as you can imagine. To cross that boundary you need feedback from outside yourself (ie a teacher)... Not to say that visualising isn't a very valuable training tool.

I think the same goes for watching a video, what one is going to see, and which neurons are going to fire, is going to depend on what the person watching imagines to be going on.

kvaak
Pauliina

Rupert Atkinson 09-27-2005 10:03 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Interesting stuff - and while I feel it is true, I guess the 'proof of the pudding' is in what the viewer actually does. For example, does he use his imagination and try to learn it all as suggested, or, does he just stick it in a drawer and wait the the 10th Dan video black belt to arrive in the post?

Also, it really can be quite difficult to see what is happening in a video (or in real life). Ten people watching the same thing will see different things, just as those same ten feeling the technique will feel different things. It all depends upon where you are on the learning continuum.

Recently, I have been busy videoing my classes. The most amazing thing I have discovered is that some of the 'ones' I thought I would edit out - because I used too much strength and I knew it and my partner knew it - actually turned out looking really good. Why? Perhaps because my parther was really trying to thwart my technique (something we have been working on) what I actually did in response turned out looking quite smooth even though it didn't feel that good at the time. This still has me somewhat baffled... but what it means is you really can't trust what you see. Anyway, what I am saying her e is that feeling has power over watching.

billybob 09-28-2005 07:47 AM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Rupert said "This still has me somewhat baffled... but what it means is you really can't trust what you see. Anyway, what I am saying here is that feeling has power over watching."

I couldn't agree with you more!

Now, if Jun asks next "Does your Sensei allow talking on the mat?" - we'll have a hell of a poll!

Dave

po_courcelles 10-05-2005 08:58 PM

Re: Poll: How effective is learning aikido through a purely visual media (videos, DVDs, software, etc)?
 
Hi all,

First post !! Wooohoo :cool:

Personnaly, i see Aikido books as good as any other reference book any professional would have in his office's bookshelve, especially the ones about Aikido spirituality/philosophy (i don't believe in learning anything from static pictures, except enjoying the beauty of the art...).

I own several Saito and Saotome Sensei's Jo&Bokken DVDs and I consider these are pure priceless masterpieces. Ever tried practicing 31 jo kata alone in your living room? Having Saito (virtually) doing it with you is a good help when you don't know it perfectly.

Of course this ain't worth nothing if you never stepped on the mat! I consider books and DVDs to be more "collection" pieces for any serious aikido lover. Like good sake and sushis...can't get enough :D

Anyways, just wanted to break the ice with a first post ;)


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